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by Conor Chaplin
18 January 2021 5:19 AM

Welcome to the Hotel… Quarantine

The Sunday Times reports that the UK is set to copy countries such as New Zealand and introduce mandatory hotel quarantine for all arrivals into the country, replacing what has hitherto been a requirement only to go home directly and self-isolate there:

Ministers have ordered plans to be drawn up for a fresh crackdown at Britain’s borders to stop new variants of the coronavirus undermining the vaccination effort.

Officials have been told to prepare for the creation of quarantine hotels for those arriving in Britain and to use GPS and facial-recognition technology to check that people are staying in isolation.

This is a significant change in policy and comes as the Government is simultaneously downplaying suggestions that the various mutations of the virus may be resistant to the vaccine when talking about their ongoing roll-out of it to millions of Brits, and, at the same time, using precisely those fears to justify more travel restrictions.

Last week officials were ordered to study New Zealand’s policy of “directed isolation”, where everyone arriving is charged for a stay at an airport hotel and forced to remain in isolation for two weeks.

In Australia it is between 14 and 24 days, with travellers charged between £1,500 and £2,500. The UK Government is only considering a system where visitors pay the costs themselves.

Civil servants will also examine how to emulate a scheme in Poland, where those told to isolate are subject to “enhanced monitoring”. Each person is contacted once a day and told to send a photograph of themselves at the location where they are confined. These are cross-referenced using GPS data and facial-recognition software. Those who fail to comply within 20 minutes receive a visit from police.

It is understood that ministers discussed both ideas at a meeting on Thursday. A senior Government source said that, if used, this technology would be confined to new arrivals in the UK, not those told to self-isolate who are already here.

The plans go further than changes announced last week that require everyone coming to the UK to produce a negative Covid test. “Air corridors”, which allowed some people to come in more easily, were scrapped.

Cabinet sources said Matt Hancock, the Health Secretary, floated a moratorium on all international travel for a month, to stop new variants in their tracks, but faced resistance from Grant Shapps, the Transport Secretary, on the grounds it would cripple trade.

Concerns that the pandemic response has been accompanied by a tendency towards China-style surveillance won’t be assuaged by these plans to require a digital ‘minder’ in the room at all times.

If these variants are to be treated with such extreme caution now, for fear that the vaccines provide no immunity to them, how will normal travel ever resume, given that new strains are bound to keep emerging and vaccines can only be developed and manufactured so quickly?

Worth reading in full.

Lord Sumption and Dr John Lee on The Big Questions

Nicky Campbell hosting the BBC’s discussion show

Sunday morning’s edition of The Big Questions, the BBC’s ethical, moral, and religious discussion show, which has returned in a socially distanced format, featured two prominent lockdown sceptics: Lord Jonathan Sumption and Dr John Lee. It was noteworthy for having being one of the first instances of a broadcast debate on lockdowns with participants physically present (although not the audience). The panel included various representatives of the full spectrum of opinion on lockdowns, including Professor Calum Semple from the University of Liverpool, Imam Asada Zaman from the Muslim Youth Foundation, Maddy Mussen, assistant editor at The TAB, as well as a strong ally to the sceptic cause, and Shelagh McNerney from the Academy of Ideas, among others.

Much was made afterwards of Lord Sumption’s remarks about the “value of life”. He made the common-sense observation near the top of the programme that we should attribute less ‘value’ to the life of an older person than a younger one, and made reference to the familiar concept of Quality-Adjusted Life Years (QALYs) used by health services worldwide.

“All lives are not of equal value because the older you are, the less life you have left,” he said.

He then faced repeated rebukes from other panellists, including from Deborah James, a sufferer from Stage 4 bowel cancer, who claimed Sumption had essentially declared that her own life was worthless.

“I’m the person who you say their life is not valuable,” she said, at which point Lord Sumption interrupted her: “I didn’t say it wasn’t valuable, I said it was less valuable.”

She then responded: “Who are you to put a value on life? In my view and I think in the view of many other people, all life is sacred and I don’t think you should make these judgement calls.”

A torrent of pearl-clutching followed on social media, with a stream of Twitter users sharing edited excerpts from the programme and condemning Sumption as a “fascist” or “eugenicist”. Even the Daily Mail ran a piece claiming “former Supreme Court judge Lord Sumption today told a Stage 4 bowel cancer sufferer that her life was ‘less valuable’ than others”.

He did say that, but he was nonetheless misunderstood. The concept of QALYs has been developed so we can make value judgements when facing difficult medical choices in a way which doesn’t commit the cardinal sin Lord Sumption was accused of, namely, making a subjective judgement about how much value to place on a person’s life. Instead, it attaches a value to a unit of a person’s life – a year – and then adjusts that value according to the quality of life that they will have during that year. It doesn’t take into account what sort of person they are, their values, what they do with their time, etc. So he didn’t say Deborah James’s life was “less valuable” in the judgemental sense he was accused of. Rather, he was saying it was only less valuable than, say, a healthy young person because she won’t live as long and her quality of life during her remaining time won’t be very high.

The fact that Lord Sumption’s remarks were greeted with such shock – both on the programme and afterwards – is due to people’s ignorance of health economics. They are apparently unaware that health economists make these sort of calculations all the time – as do the heads of intensive care units in hospitals when they triage a patient. Indeed, the people answering emergency calls make these life-and-death decisions on an hourly basis, dispatching ambulances to some callers but not to others. As Dr John Lee pointed out, “Not making these decisions is a luxury health economists don’t have.”

It was a shame Nicky Campbell, the show’s host, didn’t do more to clarify this misunderstanding.

Nevertheless, the programme is worth watching in full.

One in Six Covid Patients Caught Disease in Hospital

One in six patients have been infected in hospital, according to David Rose and Laura Dodsworth in today’s Daily Mail.

More than 25,000 patients have caught coronavirus in hospital since the second wave of the pandemic began in September.

One in six COVID-19 patients in NHS hospitals in England were infected while being treated for other conditions, according to internal Health Service figures.

So far this month, 5,684 Covid-positive in-patients out of 44,315 – about one in eight – were infected after being admitted for other conditions.

An intensive care consultant in the Midlands said that he took a “snapshot” of all the patients in his unit on one day last month and found that 40% of them had been infected in hospital.

A specialist Covid nurse treating people at home said many of her patients had contracted the virus in hospital and were re-admitted when their conditions worsened.

The nosocomial nature of the disease has been a cause for concern since the start, with such experts as Dr John Ioannidis were making the point as early as March 2020. It’s also been flagged up frequently by the senior doctor who writes regularly for Lockdown Sceptics.

David Oliver, an NHS Consultant, recently wrote in the BMJ:

Hospitals are currently in the eye of a COVID-19 storm, driven by a rapid rise in community infection rates and more new emergency cases presenting daily. But before the current surge there were concerns about Covid infection acquired or identified during a hospital stay.

In October the Healthcare Safety Investigation Branch (HSIB) issued a report on the factors behind hospital acquired COVID-19 infections in England last spring. We now have better access to testing and personal protective equipment (PPE). We have better knowledge from research and guidelines. But the rates of Covid infection officially classified as “hospital acquired” have yet to fall.

NHS hospitals are fielding formal complaints from people angry and distressed that they, or a family member, may have contracted infection in what they expect to be a place of safety. Teams battling to deliver clinical care in a highly pressurised environment and at some personal risk will be sent down a distracting, demoralising warren of complaint handling and root cause analysis, for something that can seem inevitable and out of our control.

Sir Simon Stevens’s Interview with Andrew Marr

The senior doctor who regularly contributes to Lockdown Sceptics has given us this reaction to the interview given by NHS Chief Executive Sir Simon Stephens on the Andrew Marr Show yesterday.

Yesterday, Simon Stevens was interviewed by Andrew Marr on the BBC. He used two statistics to illustrate the pressure the NHS was under. Firstly, that one Covid patient was admitted to hospital every 30 seconds and that there were 15,000 extra Covid inpatients in English hospitals since Christmas Day.

Is this true?

One patient every 30 seconds is the equivalent of 2,880 Covid patients per 24-hour period. The most recent figures show that the “total reported admissions to hospital” released on the daily hospital situation report have been in excess of 2,880 every day since December 29th.

However, the “admissions from the community” are lower than this figure and have only been above the 2,880 threshold since January 4th. The NHS is typically opaque at defining what these terms mean. I take the difference between the two figures to indicate the number of patients contracting Covid in hospital.

With respect to the statement about the total number of inpatients, it is correct that on Christmas Day there were approximately 17,000 Covid inpatients and that number is now 32,000.

What Simon Stevens forgot to mention was that patients are also being discharged from hospital. The discharge information is only disclosed in the monthly data packet and we only have information up to January 6th.

The problem the NHS has is in managing the flow of patients through the hospital. Simply put, there are more patients coming in or catching Covid in hospital than there are going out. Some of this problem is just bad luck because of the viral spread – some of it is NHS inefficiency.

I have displayed the relevant information in Graph 1 below. This a complicated graphic with two different Y axes, so I will explain:

Firstly, note the orange bars – these are “admissions from the community”. In other words, the patients coming through the doors every day with Covid. The blue bars are “new Covid hospital patients – admissions plus positive tests in hospital”. The NHS does not explicitly acknowledge that there are any patients acquiring Covid in hospital, but I take this to mean that the difference between the orange and the blue bars are the numbers of nosocomial infections every day. Any time the blue line crosses 2,800 on the left-hand side Y axis, the rate of admission per 24 hours is one patient every 30 seconds.

Graph 1.

Next, observe the yellow line. This is the daily rate of hospital discharge of Covid patients. You can see that this is quite a low number over Christmas Day and Boxing Day – patients are very rarely discharged on bank holidays or at weekends. 

In the week before Christmas, discharges were running at about 1,200 per day – or in Simon Stevens soundbite speak, “one discharge every 72 seconds”. The yellow line picks up after Christmas, dips again over new year then rises to 2,400 per day by January 5th – or “one discharge every 36 seconds”.

The problem is that the yellow line is always below the level of the blue bars, so the total number of Covid patients is always rising. Have a look at the gray line using the right-hand Y axis, showing a rise from 17,000 on December 25th to 32,000 by January 16th.

We are not allowed to know where the yellow discharge line currently stands. These figures are available but will not disclosed by the NHS until mid-February.

Patients that have recovered from Covid may not be discharged for a variety of reasons. I have covered these before in previous posts. The principal problems are that care homes are reluctant to take patients back from hospitals because of what happened in the Spring. Some patients do not want to go home as they have vulnerable relatives who are shielding. Some may not have anyone at home and may be too frail to look after themselves. This is a perennial problem in the NHS and is exacerbated every winter. Despite having six months to prepare for an expected winter crisis, the NHS didn’t prepare for this eventuality. I don’t recall Andrew Marr asking Simon Stevens to explain why.

If the yellow discharge line rises above the blue bars, then the total number of inpatients on the gray line would start to fall and the pressure on hospitals would reduce.

For some reason Simon Stevens forgot to mention that – but it’s not a very snappy soundbite. 

More On Harms to Children

Yesterday we flagged up the Sunday Times article by Dr Vanessa Moulton describing the huge increase in mental health issues she is witnessing among children in her clinic. Sadly, news of the mounting impact of lockdowns on children comes thick and fast at the moment. The New York Times has a piece by Matt Richtel on the upward trend in children’s screen addictions, which were already a serious cause for concern among many experts before the Covid crisis.

The day after New Year’s, John Reichert of Boulder, CO, had a heated argument with his 14 year-old son, James. “I’ve failed you as a father,” he told the boy despairingly.

During the long months of lockdowns and shuttered schools, Mr. Reichert, like many parents, overlooked the vastly increasing time that his son was spending on video games and social media. Now, James, who used to focus his free time on mountain biking and playing basketball, devotes nearly all of his leisure hours – about 40 a week – to Xbox and his phone. During their argument, he pleaded with his father not to restrict access, calling his phone his “whole life”.

“That was the tipping point. His whole life?” said Mr. Reichert, a technical administrator in the local sheriff’s office. “I’m not losing my son to this.”

Nearly a year into the coronavirus pandemic, parents across the country – and the world – are watching their children slide down an increasingly slippery path into an all-consuming digital life. When the outbreak hit, many parents relaxed restrictions on screens as a stopgap way to keep frustrated, restless children entertained and engaged. But, often, remaining limits have vaporized as computers, tablets and phones became the centerpiece of school and social life, and weeks of stay-at-home rules bled into nearly a year.

The situation is alarming parents, and scientists too.

“There will be a period of epic withdrawal,” said Keith Humphreys, a Professor of Psychology at Stanford University, an addiction expert and a former senior adviser to President Barack Obama on drug policy. It will, he said, require young people to “sustain attention in normal interactions without getting a reward hit every few seconds”.

Experts voice further concerns about addiction later in the article.

Recent neuroimaging research suggests heavy use of certain video games may cause brain changes linked to addictive behaviors. One of the study’s authors, Christian Montag, a Professor of Molecular Physiology at Ulm University, also co-authored a recent overview of digital use during the COVID-19 pandemic, published last month in Addictive Behavior Reports. It reported that German teens are playing video games with much greater frequency than before lockdown and concluded “that overuse of digital technologies represents a likely phenomenon and outcome of the COVID-19 pandemic”.

Dr Humphreys, from Stanford, said he believed that adults and children alike could, with disciplined time away from devices, learn to disconnect. But doing so has become complicated by the fact that the devices now are at once vessels for school, social life, gaming and other activities central to life.

These psychological concerns are not the only ones to have been raised. A paper entitled: “Digital Screen Time During the COVID-19 Pandemic: Risk for a Further Myopia Boom?” published in the American National Centre for Biotechnology Information (NCBI) last summer drew attention to looming problems with eyesight, concluding in its abstract:

Increased digital screen time, near work, and limited outdoor activities were found to be associated with the onset and progression of myopia, and could potentially be aggravated during and beyond the COVID-19 pandemic outbreak period. While school closures may be short-lived, increased access to, adoption of, and dependence on digital devices could have a long-term negative impact on childhood development. Raising awareness among parents, children, and government agencies is key to mitigating myopigenic behaviors that may become entrenched during this period.

Stop Press: Christina Lamb wrote in yesterday’s Sunday Times about the stresses faced by the children of poor families in Tower Hamlets in the East End of London.

When Rekha Begum’s seven year-old son Moussa showed her what he had written on the “hope tree” he was asked to draw for school, she cried. He had written: “A house.” “I felt so bad,” she said. Begum, 40, who is disabled, lives with her four children, aged from seven to 21, in a cramped second-floor flat on a council estate in Tower Hamlets, east London, one of the most deprived – and Covid-infected – parts of Britain.

From the end of the street, past a patch of grass littered with discarded syringes, where Moussa once picked up a condom, the gleaming glass towers of Canary Wharf, the headquarters of leading banks and finance companies, can be seen on the horizon. It seems a world away. More than half of children in Tower Hamlets live in poverty.

A former carer, Begum shares a bed with Moussa. Her two other sons, aged 15 and 19, share a room, and her daughter sleeps on the sofa. “Nobody gets much sleep,” she shrugged.

Apart from Moussa, who is at primary school, one son is doing GCSEs and the two eldest children are university students. They have two laptops in total, including for Begum’s work as virtual assistant for a cab company, and she fears her children are falling behind – disastrous on estates rife with gangs and drugs.

“I asked for another, but the teacher said, ‘You have two and many families don’t have one,’” Begum said.

Lockdown the third time round, with its cold, dark days and return to homeschooling, may feel harder than ever – the novelty of baking sourdough, Yoga with Adriene, or Zoom cocktails long having worn off for many – but for families such as Begum’s and others in London’s poorest borough, it is unimaginable.

I was shocked when I first met these families last April to see how different life was in lockdown from mine, with a garden and plenty of space, and have stayed in touch with them since.

Nine months on – more than half of them spent under lockdown – many households are reaching breaking point. “I feel like a small boat being tossed about with dangerous waters all around,” said Begum. “We’re all feeling suffocated, both physically but also mentally.”

Such is the mental toll that a few months ago her eldest son went to Shadwell Basin and tried to throw himself into the Thames.

Worth reading in full.

Care Home Staff Face Sack After Shunning Vaccine

The Sunday Times reports that:

The National Care Association has taken the unprecedented step of seeking a legal opinion on whether care home workers can be made to accept vaccination after thousands refused. Between 6% and 8% of the 1.5 million adult social care workforce in England are declining jabs, despite the number of coronavirus cases in care homes trebling in the past month, according to industry reporting of uptake across the country.

This is a fairly small proportion compared the general population. With 92-94% declaring themselves willing to get the jab, it could be seen as a rather drastic approach to try to force 100% compliance. If successful, it may also set a worrying precedent for other employers considering a similar approach – the so-called ‘no jab, no job’ policy. The piece continues with poll data:

The development comes as a poll reveals that only 41% of 18- to 34-year-olds say they will “definitely” take the vaccine. In the survey by the research data company Focaldata, the percentage of people who say they will definitely have the jab increases in line with age.

Among 18 to 24-year-olds, just over one in three (36%) say they will definitely be inoculated against the virus, rising to 44% among 25- to 34-year-olds, 56% among 35- to 44-year-olds, 71%- among 45 to 64-year-olds and 90% among those aged 65 and above.

Ethnic minorities are even less likely than young people to say they will take the vaccine, with just a third (33%) committed to having the jab.

Overall, one in six people are opposed to having the jab – with women more hesitant than men. The poll reveals that 60% of women and 69% of men will definitely take the vaccine. The proportion of the population that must be infected or inoculated to achieve “herd immunity” is uncertain, but it is likely to be more than 80%.

People in Greater London are the most cautious about having the vaccine, with just 41% of those asked saying they will definitely have the jab, followed by those in the East Midlands (52%) and West Midlands (56%).

Scotland has the highest percentage of people willing to have the jab, with 78% who will definitely have the vaccine.

The Government may have a challenge on its hands regarding the remarkable vaccine scepticism among ethnic minorities. Having been at pains to emphasise the higher risk faced on average by BAME people during the pandemic, and after a year of heightened tension around Black Lives Matter and race issues, it’s conceivable that a Tory government could find it politically unpalatable to be seen to move in the direction of direct or indirect coercion against the expressed will of two-thirds of the BAME community.

The Chairwoman of the National Care Association, Nadra Ahmed, outlined some of the reasons given by care staff for their reticence:

Ahmed said although the proportion of staff refusing to take the vaccine had fallen since the roll-out began, the figures were still a concern. “I think we started with between 15% and 18% of the workforce, we were being told, who were reluctant to have it, but I think that it’s dropped to about 8%.

“We are also hearing that some of them are based around reasons that are religious, or they’ve got conditions, or it’s a fear… Very few are conspiracy theory types, but there are [some] within the numbers that we’ve been told about.

“Even one [care worker turning down the vaccine] is more than we would want. We’ve asked for a legal opinion on it – we’re just waiting for that legal opinion to come through.”

The poll reveals the two most common reasons people are opposed to the jab is concern the “vaccines have been rushed through” (45%) and “wanting to wait until more people have had it to see if it is safe” (35%).

Lack of trust in institutions and authorities plays a larger part than the more extreme conspiracy theories. One in five (21%) mention a lack of trust in the pharmaceutical companies that made the vaccine as a reason for their opposition, while one in six (16%) “don’t trust the people who want us to take the vaccine”.

One in five (21%) of those sceptical about taking a vaccine say that this because they believe “the side effects and potential risks of the vaccine are worse than the disease itself”, while just over one in 10 (13%) “would rather let nature take its course”.

Worth reading in full.

A Wittgensteinian Writes…

Ludwig Wittgenstein

We are publishing a piece today entitled “Why We Shouldn’t Moralise Means to Moral Ends” by Ben Hawkins, a trainee lawyer with an interest in the philosophy of Ludwig Wittgenstein.

There’s an excellent Mitchell and Webb sketch in which a pair of ministerial aides are reporting back to their minister on potential solutions for dealing with a recession… “raising VAT, cutting VAT, raising interest rates, raising interest rates and VAT, lowering income tax and raising VAT”. But despite their efforts, they haven’t been able to land on anything – when their proposed measures are put through their computer models, none of them seems to work. Suddenly the minister interrupts. “Have you tried ‘kill all the poor’?” When the shocked aides protest the minister replies, “I’m not saying do it, I’m just saying run it through the computer ­– see if it would work.”

Whilst undoubtedly a broadside aimed at the austerity policies of the time, the sketch works as it highlights a feature of our moral reflexes that is often overlooked: for most moral agents with genuinely held moral beliefs, it is not enough to avoid doing wrong; to merely consider doing that wrong action feels like a moral transgression in and of itself. A serious moral agent, believing that killing people is wrong, would never consider running “kill all the poor” through the computer, as doing so would seemingly violate the principle of the sanctity of life which the belief in not killing people upholds. As Robert Webb’s character shrieks exasperatedly when asked why he won’t just give it a go – “Because it’s offensive and evil!”

Worth reading in full.

Telegraph Letter

A reader spotted a good letter that appeared recently in the Telegraph.

SIR – I was recently speaking to a friend in South Africa, who told me that, every day, the government publishes the recovery rate of Covid patients, alongside the data on cases and deaths. This means that South Africans receive some good news – and are reminded that getting the virus is not a death sentence for most healthy citizens.

Our Government, by contrast, seems intent on delivering only the bad news. It’s time that we were given some perspective and hope.

Roger Woodgate
Wellingborough, Northamptonshire

NHS Worship: A Doctor Writes…

We are also publishing a piece called “Ruminating About the New Religion” by a medical doctor who writes under the pseudonym Dr J. Here is an excerpt:

In 2020, a new reformation has happened, hastened on by the ‘pandemic’, and credited to the good folk of China. The Church of England, no longer the nation’s moral compass or cultural centre, not only ceased to be the established church, but gladly ceded that title to the NHS, the new established Church in England. Venerable Cathedrals like Salisbury now close their doors to public worship opting for something on the Internet. Yet they open the doors to the new church, the NHS, and allow everyone in to be vaccinated, something that would ostensibly help ‘protect the NHS’. This followed from the example of See of Canterbury which in March first ordered all Churches to close and threatened all pastors with sanctions if they even thought about opening them or stepping inside. All of this was to protect the NHS and save lives. The NHS, the new established religion, must be protected at all costs, especially by the old established religion. No one is permitted to die, or at least not from Covid. And besides, the former CofE never had the time to tell followers how to do that well anyway.

The new head of the Church, our PM, duly appointed its new Archbishop, the Health Secretary, and he appointed and ceded all power to decide how the nation would live its life – or not – to his high priests, the collective heads of the health services and our new prognosticator in chief, Neil Ferguson. A new Parliament was established of course, now called SAGE, appointed to be the new theologians of this religion, instructing us on the reality of certain death if we don’t listen to and heed all they teach and say. In this newly established Church, all other institutions are insignificant – the family, religion, businesses, education, universities – and there will no longer be freedom of speech and freedom of conscience, democracy, or the right to challenge the established orthodoxy. If it’s not the NHS, it’s not important. If all heads of the health service don’t believe and preach it, then neither can you. If they believe and preach it, then you must as well.

The new heads of the newly established Church and its high priests and its theologians have instead decided to preach the doctrines through the pulpit of the BBC, and censor, ridicule, sideline, demonise and use their compliant members to enforce the orthodoxy in the press and on social media.

Worth reading in full.

The Wisdom of Martin Luther King

Today is Martin Luther King Day in the United States so we thought we’d share a quote from the good reverend.

You may be 38 years old, as I happen to be. And one day, some great opportunity stands before you and calls you to stand up for some great principle, some great issue, some great cause.

And you refuse to do it because you are afraid…Y ou refuse to do it because you want to live longer… You’re afraid that you will lose your job, or you are afraid that you will be criticized or that you will lose your popularity, or you’re afraid that somebody will stab you, or shoot at you or bomb your house; so you refuse to take the stand.

Well, you may go on and live until you are 90, but you’re just as dead at 38 as you would be at 90. And the cessation of breathing in your life is but the belated announcement of an earlier death of the spirit.

Ipso Ruling: More Reader Responses

Two more readers with scientific backgrounds have kindly sent in comments about the Ipso ruling against Toby which we reported on two days ago. We published the first set of responses yesterday.

Martin Evison PhD, a retired Science Professor formerly at Sheffield, Toronto, and Northumbria Universities, wrote:

I was disappointed to learn of the IPSO ruling, which I think is mistaken.

With regard to ‘herd immunity’, I refer you to Johns Hopkins School of Public Health, whose Q&A would appear to concur specifically with Toby’s comments in the Daily Telegraph regarding herd immunity and the proportion of the population needed to confer it (see the following):

“What is herd immunity?

When most of a population is immune to an infectious disease, this provides indirect protection – or herd immunity (also called herd protection) – to those who are not immune to the disease. For example, if 80% of a population is immune to a virus, four out of every five people who encounter someone with the disease won’t get sick (and won’t spread the disease any further). In this way, the spread of infectious diseases is kept under control. Depending how contagious an infection is, usually 50% to 90% of a population needs immunity to achieve herd immunity.” (Johns Hopkins School of Public Health)

The term ‘natural immunity’ is a little ambiguous, as it can be used i) to distinguish between pre-existing immunity and immunity conferred only following infection or vaccination; ii) to distinguish between vaccine-acquired immunity and immunity acquired without a vaccine, and iii) to distinguish between innate – including T-cell mediated – immunity and adaptive immunity mediated by antibodies – which I anticipate was Toby’s intended meaning. There is a substantial literature on the latter topic. Here is an accessible recent scientific summary.

If Toby is asserting that natural, T-cell mediated and other innate immunity – including that resulting from prior infection with other coronaviruses, combined with a level – say 17% seroprevalence – of adaptive immunity is probably sufficient to confer herd immunity in London – then this is at least a plausible hypothesis reflecting conventional wisdom.

If scientific uncertainty applies to one claim, then it must equally apply to its opposite – e.g. that natural, T-cell mediated and other innate immunity – including that resulting from prior infection with other coronaviruses, combined with a level – say 17 % seroprevalence – of adaptive immunity is probably insufficient to confer herd immunity in London. 

If Ipso want to preferentially silence one claim over the other, they need to say why and provide evidence supporting that opinion. 

It is at best unethical for the Government or its scientific advisers to pretend they are basing their decisions on certainties, where they do not exist. It seems, furthermore, that they are ignoring a number of certainties – or at any rate preponderance of evidence in their favour – that have become increasingly apparent since March 2020.

Gordon Burns, a retired Professor of Cancer Research who has a BSc in Biochemistry, a Postgraduate Diploma and Primary MRCPath in Microbiology, and a PhD from Cambridge with five years as a Postdoctoral Researcher in Immunology, writes:

The interviews published and the comments provided in the mainstream media on viral replication and the natural immune response are so utterly ignorant and such irresponsible misinformation that I feel obliged to comment. I will try to put things in lay terms.

First – contrary to public belief and propaganda on vaccines – viruses are not killed by antibodies. For the simple reason that – unlike bacteria and other living organisms – they are not living organisms and thus cannot be “killed”, whether by antibodies or anything else within the body.

Infectious respiratory viruses have an RNA core (for replication) and a protein coat. The protein coat consists of invariant structural proteins and the ’spike protein’ that contains within it the small peptide that constitutes the cell-binding domain (CBD).

Most structural proteins are shared by viral groups such as coronaviruses.

Upon primary infection of mucosal and epithelial cells in the bronchial tract, the infected cells in distress display the viral proteins at their cell surface. Structural and spike. Cytotoxic T-cells recognise these foreign proteins and kill the infected cells. These viral proteins (structural or spike) are remembered by the T-cells which survive for (almost) life as memory T-cells.

Killed cells release viral particles that are excreted or infect other cells until the battle is won. Never to progress further.

Thus, in many cases, viral infections never proceed beyond this stage and T-cell immunity is retained. The only antibodies generated at this site are IgM and IgA antibodies.

Immunisation, by contrast, induces IgG antibodies at a distal site. These can be deleterious to primary infections.

If you like, I can extrapolate further on the IgG response, but readers should be aware of the primary response explained above.

We’re grateful for these contributions, and any more expert readers are welcome to email us their responses.

Round-up

  • “Lockdown was never the only option” – a tour de force by Fraser Myers in spiked
  • “From Trumpism to lockdown, people believe in the craziest things” – Lionel Shriver’s latest Spectator column
  • “France’s vaccine problem” – Professor of French History, John Keiger, also in the Spectator, on France’s déclassement
  • “Media’s libertarian Covid sceptics under fire from senior Tory” – Incorrectly calling us “Covid sceptics”, rather than lockdown sceptics, The Guardian reports on Neil O’Brien MP’s hysterical social media attacks on Toby
  • “Stop Quebec’s ineffective lockdown now” – Professor Douglas Farrow of McGill University calls for an end to useless lockdowns in his Canadian province, in The Post Millennial
  • “Covid passports: a freedom certificate that may get the world travelling again” – The Sunday Times reports on this dystopian possibility
  • “Italian Restaurants Open in Mass Protest at Lockdown Rules” – In addition to the video we included in yesterday’s round-up, James Delingpole in Breitbart reports that the mass defiance of curfews is increasing in Italy, as well as spreading to Poland. Find evidence of these rebellions on Twitter by searching for #IoApro
  • “Maskless Laurence Fox Is ‘Selfish Loathsome Tool’ Says Bully Tory MP” – Delingpole again on Fox’s ordeal after posting a photo with his new mask exemption lanyard
  • “Italy’s South Tyrol again flouts Rome over virus closures” – More on the #IoApro rebellion as regions defy the Government, from ABC News
  • “Dutch police blast angry anti-lockdown protestors with water cannon and charge them on horseback in terrifying scenes in Amsterdam” – The Mail Online reports on the extraordinary clashes in The Netherlands
  • “Freedom won’t survive a world where every lethal virus triggers another lockdown” – Dan Hannan in The Telegraph fears a future of risk-aversion
  • “The Cost of Lockdowns” – Wide-ranging video interview with Canadian physician Dr Patrick Phillips
  • “Where’s our Dunkirk spirit?” – Jeremy Clarkson bemoans all the moaning in The Times
  • “The New Normal Documentary” – Documentary by happen.network setting out the Great Reset conspiracy theory in a way that doesn’t make it sound like a conspiracy theory
  • Maajid Nawaz’s Twitter thread collating lockdown harms – The LBC presenter is a lonely voice against lockdowns at the station
https://twitter.com/MaajidNawaz/status/1350903260245323781

Theme Tunes Suggested by Readers

Seven today: “So Lonely” by The Police, “Don’t Stand So Close to Me” by Sting, “Throw Away the Key” by Linx, “Behind the Mask” by Michael Jackson, “Hide Your Face” by Lynyrd Skynyrd, “Which Side Are You On?” by Pete Seeger, and “A Walk in the Park” by Nick Straker Band.

Love in the Time of Covid

We have created some Lockdown Sceptics Forums, including a dating forum called “Love in a Covid Climate” that has attracted a bit of attention. We have a team of moderators in place to remove spam and deal with the trolls, but sometimes it takes a little while so please bear with us. You have to register to use the Forums as well as post comments below the line, but that should just be a one-time thing. Any problems, email the Lockdown Sceptics webmaster Ian Rons here.

Sharing Stories

Some of you have asked how to link to particular stories on Lockdown Sceptics so you can share it. To do that, click on the headline of a particular story and a link symbol will appear on the right-hand side of the headline. Click on the link and the URL of your page will switch to the URL of that particular story. You can then copy that URL and either email it to your friends or post it on social media. Please do share the stories.

Social Media Accounts

You can follow Lockdown Sceptics on our social media accounts which are updated throughout the day. To follow us on Facebook, click here; to follow us on Twitter, click here; to follow us on Instagram, click here; to follow us on Parler, click here; and to follow us on MeWe, click here.

Woke Gobbledegook

We’ve decided to create a permanent slot down here for woke gobbledegook. Today, we have this opinion piece in the Washington Post by Cristina Beltrán entitled “To understand Trump’s support, we must think in terms of multiracial Whiteness”, wherein she burnishes her ‘anti-racist’ credentials by associating everything she dislikes with “whiteness”, which, she argues, is a quality that can be espoused by people who are not actually white. So progressive….

The Trump administration’s anti-immigration, anti-civil rights stance has made it easy to classify the President’s loyalists as a homogenous mob of white nationalists. But take a look at the FBI’s posters showing people wanted in the insurrectionist assault on the US Capitol: Among the many White faces are a few that are clearly Latino or African American.

Such diversity highlights the fact that President Trump’s share of the Latino vote in November actually rose over 2016, notwithstanding years of incendiary rhetoric targeting Mexicans and other Latino communities. Yes, Trump’s voters – and his mob – are disproportionately White, but one of the more unsettling exit-poll data points of the 2020 election was that a quarter to a third of Latino voters voted to reelect Trump.

She continues in a similar vein and adds:

Rooted in America’s ugly history of white supremacy, indigenous dispossession and anti-blackness, multiracial whiteness is an ideology invested in the unequal distribution of land, wealth, power and privilege – a form of hierarchy in which the standing of one section of the population is premised on the debasement of others. Multiracial whiteness reflects an understanding of whiteness as a political colour and not simply a racial identity – a discriminatory worldview in which feelings of freedom and belonging are produced through the persecution and dehumanization of others.

Multiracial whiteness promises Latino Trump supporters freedom from the politics of diversity and recognition. For voters who see the very act of acknowledging one’s racial identity as itself racist, the politics of multiracial whiteness reinforces their desired approach to colorblind individualism. In the politics of multiracial whiteness, anyone can join the MAGA movement and engage in the wild freedom of unbridled rage and conspiracy theories.

Multiracial whiteness offers citizens of every background the freedom to call Muslims terrorists, demand that undocumented immigrants be rounded up and deported, deride BLM as a movement of thugs and criminals, and accuse Democrats of being blood-drinking paedophiles.

Stop Press: Unsurprisingly, Titania McGrath has weighed in:

As a white person of colour, I am extremely worried about the rise of black whiteness. pic.twitter.com/QlOm08vcQh

— Titania McGrath (@TitaniaMcGrath) January 17, 2021

“Mask Exempt” Lanyards

We’ve created a one-stop shop down here for people who want to obtain a “Mask Exempt” lanyard/card – because wearing a mask causes them “severe distress”, for instance. You can print out and laminate a fairly standard one for free here and the Government has instructions on how to download an official “Mask Exempt” notice to put on your phone here. And if you feel obliged to wear a mask but want to signal your disapproval of having to do so, you can get a “sexy world” mask with the Swedish flag on it here.

Don’t forget to sign the petition on the UK Government’s petitions website calling for an end to mandatory face masks in shops here.

A reader has started a website that contains some useful guidance about how you can claim legal exemption. Another reader has created an Android app which displays “I am exempt from wearing a face mask” on your phone. Only 99p.

If you’re a shop owner and you want to let your customers know you will not be insisting on face masks or asking them what their reasons for exemption are, you can download a friendly sign to stick in your window here.

And here’s an excellent piece about the ineffectiveness of masks by a Roger W. Koops, who has a doctorate in organic chemistry. See also the Swiss Doctor’s thorough review of the scientific evidence here and Prof Carl Heneghan and Dr Tom Jefferson’s Spectator article about the Danish mask study here.

The Great Barrington Declaration

Professor Martin Kulldorff, Professor Sunetra Gupta and Professor Jay Bhattacharya

The Great Barrington Declaration, a petition started by Professor Martin Kulldorff, Professor Sunetra Gupta and Professor Jay Bhattacharya calling for a strategy of “Focused Protection” (protect the elderly and the vulnerable and let everyone else get on with life), was launched in October and the lockdown zealots have been doing their best to discredit it ever since. If you googled it a week after launch, the top hits were three smear pieces from the Guardian, including: “Herd immunity letter signed by fake experts including ‘Dr Johnny Bananas’.” (Freddie Sayers at UnHerd warned us about this the day before it appeared.) On the bright side, Google UK has stopped shadow banning it, so the actual Declaration now tops the search results – and Toby’s Spectator piece about the attempt to suppress it is among the top hits – although discussion of it has been censored by Reddit. The reason the zealots hate it, of course, is that it gives the lie to their claim that “the science” only supports their strategy. These three scientists are every bit as eminent – more eminent – than the pro-lockdown fanatics so expect no let up in the attacks. (Wikipedia has also done a smear job.)

You can find it here. Please sign it. Now over three quarters of a million signatures.

Update: The authors of the GBD have expanded the FAQs to deal with some of the arguments and smears that have been made against their proposal. Worth reading in full.

Update 2: Many of the signatories of the Great Barrington Declaration are involved with new UK anti-lockdown campaign Recovery. Find out more and join here.

Update 3: You can watch Sunetra Gupta set out the case for “Focused Protection” here and Jay Bhattacharya make it here.

Update 4: The three GBD authors plus Prof Carl Heneghan of CEBM have launched a new website collateralglobal.org, “a global repository for research into the collateral effects of the COVID-19 lockdown measures”. Follow Collateral Global on Twitter here. Sign up to the newsletter here.

Judicial Reviews Against the Government

There are now so many legal cases being brought against the Government and its ministers we thought we’d include them all in one place down here.

The Simon Dolan case has now reached the end of the road. The current lead case is the Robin Tilbrook case which challenges whether the Lockdown Regulations are constitutional. You can read about that and contribute here.

Then there’s John’s Campaign which is focused specifically on care homes. Find out more about that here.

There’s the GoodLawProject and Runnymede Trust’s Judicial Review of the Government’s award of lucrative PPE contracts to various private companies. You can find out more about that here and contribute to the crowdfunder here.

And last but not least there was the Free Speech Union‘s challenge to Ofcom over its ‘coronavirus guidance’. A High Court judge refused permission for the FSU’s judicial review on December 9th and the FSU has decided not to appeal the decision because Ofcom has conceded most of the points it was making. Check here for details.

Samaritans

If you are struggling to cope, please call Samaritans for free on 116 123 (UK and ROI), email jo@samaritans.org or visit the Samaritans website to find details of your nearest branch. Samaritans is available round the clock, every single day of the year, providing a safe place for anyone struggling to cope, whoever they are, however they feel, whatever life has done to them.

Shameless Begging Bit

Thanks as always to those of you who made a donation in the past 24 hours to pay for the upkeep of this site. Doing these daily updates is hard work (although we have help from lots of people, mainly in the form of readers sending us stories and links). If you feel like donating, please click here. And if you want to flag up any stories or links we should include in future updates, email us here. (Don’t assume we’ll pick them up in the comments.)

And Finally…

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2K Comments
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Lockdown Sceptic
Lockdown Sceptic
5 years ago

No Restrictions in Sweden in 2020 – What Was the Result?
Sanity 4 Sweden
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpkgfvsrVvQ
If restrictions has nothing to do with saving lives, what is it about?

37
0
Annie
Annie
5 years ago
Reply to  Lockdown Sceptic

As if we didn’t know!

16
0
FerdIII
FerdIII
5 years ago
Reply to  Lockdown Sceptic

Belarus, South Dakota, Florida, Tanzania. There are good case examples now of why LDs in Western countries are failures.

27
0
Bugle
Bugle
5 years ago
Reply to  FerdIII

Vodka and saunas. That’s the way to do covid.

7
0
Andrew K
Andrew K
5 years ago
Reply to  FerdIII

Video posted a few days ago from Florida health care worker told to prepare for covid wave next week. When asks how you you know what’s going to happen next week, her manager just said “You know what’s going on by now”

Anyway expect them to smash the Florida non lock down narrative soon.

7
0
GCarty80
GCarty80
5 years ago
Reply to  Lockdown Sceptic

Sweden had fewer restrictions, not no restrictions at all!

5
-2
Rowan
Rowan
5 years ago
Reply to  GCarty80

A heck of a lot fewer.

11
0
Carrie
Carrie
5 years ago
Reply to  GCarty80

Recommendations rather than laws- up to individuals to make their own decisions, for the most part…

12
0
Ceriain
Ceriain
5 years ago
Reply to  Carrie

Nice to see you back, Carrie. 🙂

2
0
Lockdown Sceptic
Lockdown Sceptic
5 years ago

100’s Of Polish Business’s To DEFY Lockdown / Hugo Talks #lockdown
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tE_RLkErRk&list=WL&index=72

20
-1
Lockdown Sceptic
Lockdown Sceptic
5 years ago

The Rich Get Richer, And The Poor Pay – Moral Issues?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6yhTzMe_CI&list=WL&index=66
Gates – Zuckerberg – BBC – Banks etc

Godfrey Bloom Official

8
-1
Lockdown Sceptic
Lockdown Sceptic
5 years ago

THOUSANDS Gather In Amsterdam Against Lockdown / Hugo Talks #lockdown

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bECnApFt7nc&list=WL&index=70

14
0
Lockdown Sceptic
Lockdown Sceptic
5 years ago

Concerns mount as Norway investigates link between Pfizer vaccine and 30 fatalities Sky News Australia https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHawQajDWlc Australian authorities are seeking urgent clarification from their Norwegian counterparts in the wake of disturbing reports that 30 elderly people died shortly after receiving their first shot of the Pfizer vaccine. Norwegian medical experts have stated they could not rule out a possible link between the side effects of nausea and fever and the subsequent deaths of the patients in question. The TGA said it received reports of the deaths from over 40,000 elderly individuals in Norway who were vaccinated with the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine and released a statement to reassure Australians. “The deaths were recorded among very frail patients including some which were anticipated to only have weeks or months to live,” the statement read. The chief vaccine regulator said it will continue to work with European regulators to investigate “any possible adverse risks” associated with COVID-19 vaccines, adding a warning could be added to the Pfizer vaccine label for people who are frail. The Pfizer vaccine is currently set to be the first coronavirus vaccine released in Australia with 10 million doses on order. Health Minister Greg Hunt advised Australia will proceed with… Read more »

12
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danny
danny
5 years ago
Reply to  Lockdown Sceptic

So they see no link
as most of the patients had only “weeks or months left to live” anyway.
Could be attributed to the vaccine, could not. But when somebody in that same category test “positive” for Covid, it is absolutely what then kills them, and within a calendar month.

43
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Steve Hayes
Steve Hayes
5 years ago
Reply to  danny

I am waiting for the government to start publishing vaccine related death figures.

14
0
Thomasina
Thomasina
5 years ago
Reply to  Steve Hayes

Yes so am I. They put a tender out for a company to manage and track these ‘yellow cards’ but can we find this info anywhere – no. In the USA the percentage of adverse reactions mild or otherwise is 2.3%. We have vaccinated 3million people now – even 2% equates to many thousands of reactions. Uuuummm extra hospital admissions all down to Cv19 cases?

14
0
Rowan
Rowan
5 years ago
Reply to  Thomasina

The vaccines are meant to kill a few months down the road, which is so much better for plausible deniability. It seems though, that there are too many people dying too early and big trouble ahead.

7
-2
Coronabonus
Coronabonus
5 years ago
Reply to  Rowan

Are we not into free speech around here?

3
0
JohnB
JohnB
5 years ago
Reply to  Rowan

Yeah but ‘vaccines stop the spread’ is ok ?

2
0
Elisabeth
Elisabeth
5 years ago
Reply to  Rowan

I don’t trust the folks promoting the vaccines when they at the same time go on about population reduction

1
0
Rowan
Rowan
5 years ago
Reply to  Steve Hayes

There seems to be a great reluctance to do that and no wonder.

1
-1
GiftWrappedKittyCat
GiftWrappedKittyCat
5 years ago
Reply to  Steve Hayes

I think they’ll be keeping that info well and truly hidden.

0
0
Ken Garoo
Ken Garoo
5 years ago
Reply to  GiftWrappedKittyCat

They will be included under covid deaths. They will justify that (only when asked using the right verbiage) by saying that if it hadn’t been for covid, there would be no need for a vaccine, hence covid is the ultimate cause of death.

1
0
Kevin 2
Kevin 2
5 years ago
Reply to  danny

Glad you got the volunteer bit in. But in what way would the active, young, healthy population benefit from vaccination?
And there is not even an assertion that the vaccine ‘stops the spread’…

9
0
JohnB
JohnB
5 years ago
Reply to  danny

The vaccines do not ‘stop the spread’.

5
0
Jane in France
Jane in France
5 years ago
Reply to  danny

Why on earth vaccinate somebody who has only weeks or months left to live? It makes no sense.

3
0
CivilianNotCovidian
CivilianNotCovidian
5 years ago
Reply to  Jane in France

Why on earth vaccinate a young person who had almost ZERO chance of developing let along DYING of Covid?!

1
0
Ken Garoo
Ken Garoo
5 years ago
Reply to  danny

Any death within 28 days of taking the vaccine should constitute a vaccine death according to New Normal Medicine.

4
0
Ken Garoo
Ken Garoo
5 years ago
Reply to  danny

The virus is close to, if not already, endemic, more or less indistinguishable from a seasonal flu. It is too late to ‘stop the spread’.

2
0
CivilianNotCovidian
CivilianNotCovidian
5 years ago
Reply to  danny

Human beings should not be recruited into trials of experimental drugs without very serious psychological profiling to ensure they understand what they are signing up for! Sure you agree! To do anything else is utterly unethical.

1
0
Anti_socialist
Anti_socialist
5 years ago

Members of the police Service are attested under section 29 of the Police Act 1996.

The oath, as follows:

I, … of … do solemnly and sincerely declare and affirm that I will well and truly serve the Queen in the office of constable, with fairness, integrity, diligence and impartiality, upholding fundamental human rights and according equal respect to all people; and that I will, to the best of my power, cause the peace to be kept and preserved and prevent all offences against people and property; and that while I continue to hold the said office I will to the best of my skill and knowledge discharge all the duties thereof faithfully according to law.

Constables in Scotland are required to make the declaration given in s.10 of the Police and Fire Reform (Scotland) Act 2012

I, do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm that I will faithfully discharge the duties of the office of constable with fairness, integrity, diligence and impartiality,and that I will uphold fundamental human rights and accord equal respect to all people, according to law.

17
0
Anti_socialist
Anti_socialist
5 years ago
Reply to  Anti_socialist

Covid1984 protest!

_46165757_g20police_getty.jpg
19
0
Anti_socialist
Anti_socialist
5 years ago
Reply to  Anti_socialist

She seems pleased

hhhh.jpg
20
0
Cecil B
Cecil B
5 years ago
Reply to  Anti_socialist

Waste of a uniform

5
0
Nick Rose
Nick Rose
5 years ago
Reply to  Cecil B

Waste of a skin, too.

6
0
Bart Simpson
Bart Simpson
5 years ago
Reply to  Nick Rose

Waste of everything.

2
0
Burlington
Burlington
5 years ago
Reply to  Cecil B

Waste of oxygen.

4
0
Crystal Decanter
Crystal Decanter
5 years ago
Reply to  Anti_socialist

Scissor me timbers

1
0
Rowan
Rowan
5 years ago
Reply to  Anti_socialist

She’s a dick.

2
0
Spikedee1
Spikedee1
5 years ago
Reply to  Rowan

She has a dick!

0
0
Basics
Basics
5 years ago
Reply to  Anti_socialist

Is she the most NLP’d woman in Britain?

0
0
Woden
Woden
5 years ago
Reply to  Anti_socialist

She should be shamed

0
0
Nick Rose
Nick Rose
5 years ago
Reply to  Anti_socialist

Spot the mistake, lol. Street fighters and martial artists should know it immediately.

We can use police tactics against them, with a little discipline.

1
0
mj
mj
5 years ago
Reply to  Nick Rose

please explain Mr Miyagi san..
Wipe on……. wipe off…….. wipe on…..

1
0
Winston Smith
Winston Smith
5 years ago
Reply to  mj

1. Keep your teeth/jaw clamped shut.
2. Target the knees first.
3. Don’t telegraph strikes.
4. Beware cameras/cctv.

4
0
Nick Rose
Nick Rose
5 years ago
Reply to  mj

Pulling arm back to swing baton. Tut, tut. All protestor needs do is step forward into copper’s personal space…

2
0
Ken Garoo
Ken Garoo
5 years ago
Reply to  Nick Rose

A slight tap to the goolies would drop the copper sharpish.

0
0
Banjones
Banjones
5 years ago
Reply to  Anti_socialist

She probably asked him why he’s not wearing a muzzle. ”They’ll think I don’t keep you nice”.

1
0
chaos
chaos
5 years ago

I’ve not left my home since October.. not once. Not because I am scared of a virus. But because seeing people in pointless Davos/Johnson coup imposed masks, hearing shouts of ‘mask Sir?!” and fear of police harassing me for not wearing a mask and people moving far from me as I walk past freaks me out…

True story.

88
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Annie
Annie
5 years ago
Reply to  chaos

Yes, nappy goons are horrible, horrible. But if you can get out into the country you won’t see them, only Nature sensibly getting on with Life. Even now, in beastly January, Nature is stirring. Is that an option for you?

63
0
TJN
TJN
5 years ago
Reply to  Annie

Nature is at its lowest point now. But unseen everything is reviving.

8
-1
Annie
Annie
5 years ago
Reply to  TJN

There are some daffodils out hereabouts!

11
0
TJN
TJN
5 years ago
Reply to  Annie

And here. My favourite flower.

4
0
Banjones
Banjones
5 years ago
Reply to  Annie

And snowdrops and primroses in our sad little churchyard, around our poor, abandoned, neglected church.

11
0
Elisabeth
Elisabeth
5 years ago
Reply to  Annie

Oh man we don’t get those for at least another 2 months!

0
0
J4mes
J4mes
5 years ago
Reply to  Annie

We need a community-driven app/online service that alerts people to where police are doing their stop-checks. That way we can go where we want with confidence we won’t be harassed/punished. The notion we can spread a virus in the hills of the countryside is obscene.

16
0
Boris Bullshit
Boris Bullshit
5 years ago
Reply to  Annie

Yes I am seeing bulbs coming through and more bid activity. I think both quickly pick up on the longer days. When I watch nature I always think they are the sensible ones…its humans who are totally screwed up. They act as though life is for the living now.

5
0
ElizaP
ElizaP
5 years ago
Reply to  chaos

I find it very depressing to see masks/fear expressions/etc that are around us at present. But we need to go out and demonstrate that there are people around moving around as freely as normal/with normal expressions on our faces/not wearing masks. Add that I know I feel better for having been out getting a bit of exercise and having whatever chats I have with people. So I think it’s something that needs doing for us to Get Out and About in our normal sort of way (rather than the Covid-scared way so many others are) and to do this both for our own sake and for other peoples sake.

36
0
Banjones
Banjones
5 years ago
Reply to  ElizaP

And try to smile at the muzzlers – beam at them, make eye contact, speak to them, normally, and then they just MIGHT be reminded how good it is to make human contact.

19
0
Bart Simpson
Bart Simpson
5 years ago
Reply to  chaos

Very sad but I don’t blame you.

4
0
Llamasaurus Rex
Llamasaurus Rex
5 years ago
Reply to  chaos

That’s very understandable. I, now, force myself to go out for a daily long walk round my local market town and park, with a dog, sans mask. Seeking to keep myself and the dog socialised. Refusing to stay home. However, the COVID swerves, maskerbation (in fresh air) and myriad posters/stickers exhorting be kind, stay safe, save lives, stay at home, keep distance, wash hands (I never sanitize and refuse to voluntarily strip my immune system), go this way, not that, save the nhs – and the mask raisers (when walking past me) etc…all that crap…make the experience a dystopian one.

47
0
Boris Bullshit
Boris Bullshit
5 years ago
Reply to  Llamasaurus Rex

I take my pliers with me and remove notices when ever I can.

16
0
ElizaP
ElizaP
5 years ago
Reply to  Boris Bullshit

LOL…..a few notices/police tape/etc might possibly have gone mysteriously missing too by sheer coincidence when I’ve gone out for a walk since Lockdown started.

4
0
Elisabeth
Elisabeth
5 years ago
Reply to  Llamasaurus Rex

“Maskerbation”😆😃😜😂🤣😛

0
0
Felice
Felice
5 years ago
Reply to  chaos

I too hate the sight of people in their masks, but I cannot stay inside all the time or I would seriously damage my mental health. My solution is to go for a walk around my town centre around dusk, when it is absolutely dead. Very few people around and so few mask wearers. It’s sad to see the town so quiet, with most shops shut, but far more preferable to being outside earlier in my mask mad town.

24
0
Boris Bullshit
Boris Bullshit
5 years ago
Reply to  Felice

Yes I feel the same…. its just zombie city and no doubt better at the end of the day. Funny how people claim to be wearing their masks ‘for you’ but never think about the impact on your mental health of seeing maskoid zombies everywhere.

11
0
Elisabeth
Elisabeth
5 years ago
Reply to  Felice

I have a really hard time suppressing sheep noises whenever I see people outside walking by themselves with masks on. Quite frequently a BAAAAAA or two slips out

1
0
Prof Feargoeson
Prof Feargoeson
5 years ago
Reply to  chaos

There is literally only the outdoors left now supermarkets have jumped on the Jon Sun crazy train. So go there if you can. Virtually no masks or swerving ninnies there just normal people (though I do wonder if that useless tub of lard stinking out No10 brings in an outdoor mask diktat they would start wearing them too.) Seeing the cycles of nature going on as normal and feeling even January sun on your face is a wonderful restorer.

22
0
PastImperfect
PastImperfect
5 years ago
Reply to  Prof Feargoeson

“Jon Sun crazy train“

Jon Scum crazy train???

3
0
Fiona Walker
Fiona Walker
5 years ago
Reply to  chaos

That’s so sad Chaos. Honestly, those people do exist but there are not so many of them. The distancing in my town centre and paths is now just what one would normally allow to be polite and very, very few wear masks to walk or exercise in. Stay out of shops, yes, I get that, but please don’t let the mask stasi win.

24
0
Banjones
Banjones
5 years ago
Reply to  Fiona Walker

I agree. We can all do our very small bit. We can go out and SMILE at them, let them see you holding your head up and breathing deeply of the good fresh air. Remind them what being human is all about.
(I find that very hard to do myself – but I can see the benefit of it.)

13
0
sam club
sam club
5 years ago
Reply to  Banjones

that’s what i do too i ve been making a ponit of taking especially deep breaths of air when go by a masked believer . it makes me feel better for both reasons, fresh air and hopefully annoying them or scaring them anyway

4
0
Kevin 2
Kevin 2
5 years ago
Reply to  Banjones

Smiley badges required!

2
0
J4mes
J4mes
5 years ago
Reply to  chaos

On Saturday night, me and my fiancée went for a walk around town to get some fresh air outside our cage. Lots of people out walking the same route and generally pleasant and normal.

That was until we came to a cross-road where another couple in their late fifties appeared from the adjoining path. They stopped dead in their tracks, turned around and slowly walked back the way they’d come. Once we were past the crossroad, I looked back to see that they’d turned around again and continued to walk down the route where we had been.

In other words, they were scared to walk past us.

24
0
Banjones
Banjones
5 years ago
Reply to  J4mes

When we walk through our village there are some who do the coervid leap, or stand well out of the way on the verge, or even in the road. It’s difficult NOT to say ”thank you” as they’re (by their own lights) being courteous and not doing it to make a point. But I must say, the words stick in my craw.

11
0
J4mes
J4mes
5 years ago
Reply to  Banjones

Yes, it’s like a reformed etiquette of politeness. I make sure that if I do thank them for leaping out my way or standing far away on an embankment, that I do so at a very minimal acknowledgement.

4
0
MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG
MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG
5 years ago
Reply to  Banjones

Round here (the High Peak) the swerving has increased to levels which outdo those during ‘Lockdown’ #1. Worse still, some people actually cower away from us out in the country even though we’re nowhere near them. Our policy is never to thank them (and, yes, it is hard for us to break a life-time of conditioning to be polite. It doesn’t seem to have taken them long at all as I am quite sure their only motivation is misplaced, hysterical self-preservation.) Just before the latest escalation of the fear-porn started, Alan G was on a footbridge and a young woman decided to start climbing the stairs towards him. When he got level with her, she actually turned her back on him! A small cafe has taken virtue signalling to the next level. They are closed until ‘Infections fall’. After Derbyshire Plod picked on those 2 women for drinking coffee outside, all the usual picnickers at the canal basins vanished off the face of the earth. Such nice, caring, obedient people us High-Peakers! The only good news is that outdoor face-knicker wearing does not (yet) seem to have increased. Also, on Saturday. we spotted 2 or 3 people having a sneaky… Read more »

16
0
HoMojo
HoMojo
5 years ago
Reply to  MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG

FFS, why are we being so wet and pathetic when businesses in Italy and Poland are trying to open up and there are riots in Amsterdam? Why are we so weak and servile?

21
0
MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG
MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG
5 years ago
Reply to  HoMojo

Our view of the English (and now, it seems, it’s the British) is that, give or take some shining exceptions over the years we’ve essentially been a nation of forelock-tuggers since the Norman conquest. In recent decades are have also begun suffering horribly from what we call the ‘Curse of Nice’. which seems to have folded perfectly into the ‘Curse of Woke’.

We have always considered ourselves to be left-ish but ‘Woke’ politics and now this shit-show have transformed our world-view beyond recall.

The gas-fitter has just arrived, wearing a muzzle. We invited him to remove it which he did – with alacrity! We have to nurture these little sparks of hope. . . . . .MW

18
0
HoMojo
HoMojo
5 years ago
Reply to  MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG

I couldn’t agree more and it pains me. ‘Britons never, never, never shall be slaves.’ I don’t need the jingoism but the image of us as a defiant nation seems to be at odds with the evidence. The Battle of Britain spirit may have once existed but eighty years on I see us a capitulating at the slightest threat. We are rule-keepers, not rule- breakers. I used to love the stories of the Celts etc defying the English (and I’m English.) No longer, not for just moral and ethical reasons anyway..

13
0
Boris Bullshit
Boris Bullshit
5 years ago
Reply to  MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG

Maybe the ‘Blitz Spirit’ was always mythology or maybe earlier generations were very different to current ones. I feel deeply ashamed of the people I share a country with at the moment. I honestly think they would go along with anything…and to think Johnson at first thought the public might not cooperate with lockdown.

8
0
Woden
Woden
5 years ago
Reply to  MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG

Every working blokes doing jobs in and around our house have been sceptical and funny as well, one geezer servicing our gas fires went on protests and watched UK Column…they live in the real world and have to make a living..

11
0
RichardJames
RichardJames
5 years ago
Reply to  MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG

I always, always say “Oh don’t bother putting one on for me, it’s not necessary”. Getting a dig in at the unnecessary as well as emphasising my scepticism.

5
0
Jane in France
Jane in France
5 years ago
Reply to  Banjones

On a walk the other day I met a woman whose daughter was at primary school with my son ten years ago. When I went up to her to say hello she put on her mask. We were out in the fresh air, I was keeping my distance, there was nobody else around yet she put on her mask. I was going to say she didn’t have to, I didn’t mind, but then I realised she was scared of me.

8
0
ElizaP
ElizaP
5 years ago
Reply to  Banjones

I just give them a puzzled look personally – as in “Why on earth are you moving so far away from me? I don’t understand”.

4
0
Mutineer
Mutineer
5 years ago
Reply to  J4mes

I want to take a bell with me and shake it whilst chanting ‘Unclean, unclean’.

12
0
RichardJames
RichardJames
5 years ago
Reply to  Mutineer

What a brilliant idea for a protest!

3
0
Elisabeth
Elisabeth
5 years ago
Reply to  Mutineer

🤣😛🤣😃😜😛🤣😃😜😂

0
0
Banjones
Banjones
5 years ago
Reply to  chaos

It’s an insult to the intelligence of all thinking people. We KNOW these muzzles are useless and only a badge of servitude. I know exactly how you feel.

17
0
Victoria
Victoria
5 years ago
Reply to  chaos

You will have to get out for mental health purposes. Get close to nature and enjoy that

9
0
Rowan
Rowan
5 years ago
Reply to  chaos

Go out and revel in your masklessness.

6
0
sam club
sam club
5 years ago
Reply to  chaos

is it possible for you to go out when the maddening mask wearer s are n’t out? bad weather rain , cold out . it keeps them away and you can enjoy a nice walk around some nature .
its my favorite time to go for a walk. i dont balme you i hate the masks but i also enjoy somehwat going for a walk a round the mask wearers just to show them i’m not wearing one ! and smile at fellow non mask wearers and even the masked ones.

6
0
Kevin 2
Kevin 2
5 years ago
Reply to  chaos

Trust you’re keeping up with the Vit D!
Not everyone can be on the barricades (as it were), but I’m sure you are doing your bit in your own way.

6
0
Boris Bullshit
Boris Bullshit
5 years ago
Reply to  chaos

All those things happen sadly.

2
0
PastImperfect
PastImperfect
5 years ago
Reply to  chaos

Sainsbury this morning. Two other regulars, just a little chat … “If they want me to mask up, they can have my lungs.” from one of them. Then surprise, young lady employee, shelf stacker(?), maskless and with a magic smile. Checkout lady … no muzzle and pleasant conversation.

Infuriated that such events should even merits comment.

13
0
GiftWrappedKittyCat
GiftWrappedKittyCat
5 years ago
Reply to  chaos

I’m much the same. I try to get out for a walk every day (weather permitting) but otherwise I haven’t left the house since October either. I’m pretty sure that my immune system has retired and that I’ll pick up every virus and bug there is once I’m back in the human soup.

4
0
Caramel
Caramel
5 years ago

The mandatory hotel quarantine into the UK is particularly inane as frankly, the UK is seen as a covid failure by many and so countries have shut borders to the UK.

30
-1
bluemoon
bluemoon
5 years ago
Reply to  Caramel

Wonder how that will work in June when all the G7 delegates and their no doubt huge numbers of staff and bodyguards arrive!

25
0
TJN
TJN
5 years ago
Reply to  bluemoon

Yes, going right down into the Land of the Saints as far as Penwith. That lot are about as far from the true spirit of Cornwall as it is possible to imagine.

And they won’t see, still less give a damn, about the widespread economic hardship that afflicts Cornwall today.

12
-1
bluemoon
bluemoon
5 years ago
Reply to  TJN

Cornwall is however very ‘green’ – given the amount of rain falling!
And no doubt celebrity chefs are even as we speak putting together delicious menus to showcase Cornwall’s food (no food miles you see) including the abundant fish swimming off our shores (thanks to the fish markets being closed ‘cos covid’) caught by the few fishing boats still operating (thanks to EU regulations).
God I’m cynical this morning.

11
0
TJN
TJN
5 years ago
Reply to  bluemoon

Hard not to be cynical about that lot.

I heard from one supplier that although foreign markets for their Cornish fish had been greatly decreased, they were readily finding new markets in the UK, and shifting all they needed to. On its own it’s just an anecdote, but I wonder how true it is of the bigger picture. Good news if it is, as fish is good for you, and contains Vit. D which is good for you know what …

9
0
Dorian_Hawkmoon
Dorian_Hawkmoon
5 years ago
Reply to  TJN

Exactly TJN. Perhaps they will take a drive through Camborne and Redruth to get the real Cornwall. ‘Yeah sorry we shafted the fishing industry but hey here’s a one-off sop to keep you oiks happy’. Since the supply chains for holiday catering are down it’s going to need a one-off effort, no doubt with the labour and supplies mostly brought in from elsewhere. (Cornish expat in the North of England.) KBV.

5
0
TJN
TJN
5 years ago
Reply to  Dorian_Hawkmoon

I love Cornwall, am part Cornish myself, worked there doing student jobs (boring, hard graft for almost no money – I have never since been able to sit in a restaurant and not think about the staff out the back), and live just across the border. There are two Cornwalls today, and you don’t see much of the non-holiday home one in the MSM.

Another example of today’s middle-class-liberal-elite not giving a damn, and which I think is going to come back to bite them soon.

6
0
ColoradoGirl
ColoradoGirl
5 years ago
Reply to  bluemoon

Exceptions will be made.

2
0
Dorian_Hawkmoon
Dorian_Hawkmoon
5 years ago
Reply to  bluemoon

On a positive note: for all these Reset knobs to come to Cornwall, they will have to relax the lockdown and quarantine rules briefly. Look for a brief freedom window before getting banged up again by the cuntocracy.

3
0
Richard O
Richard O
5 years ago
Reply to  Dorian_Hawkmoon

“Cuntocracy” is the perfect term for our new system of governance.

2
0
Elisabeth
Elisabeth
5 years ago
Reply to  Richard O

I’m learning some interesting new words here🤣

0
0
Spikedee1
Spikedee1
5 years ago
Reply to  Caramel

Is this just a way of stopping people flying on holiday? Or just for people coming in from another country? 7 days in Portugal, 14 nights in Stanstead sounds dreamy! Shame the still let all the migrants in on boats and the tunnel. Do the think airports are the only way into the country?

8
0
stewart
stewart
5 years ago
Reply to  Caramel

I don’t get it. Do people not understand that this means the effective locking in of people, the end of foreign travel?

Who is going to want to quarantine in isolation for 2 weeks just to on holiday? Or for a meeting?

6
0
RichardJames
RichardJames
5 years ago
Reply to  stewart

You clearly do “get it”. The end of foreign travel IS the idea.

3
0
Elisabeth
Elisabeth
5 years ago
Reply to  RichardJames

Except of course for the globalist elite filth. Because some are more equal than others

0
0
chaos
chaos
5 years ago

What will they do next?

No jab = no hospital treatment. Coming soon….

19
-1
Lisa (formerly) from Toronto
Lisa (formerly) from Toronto
5 years ago
Reply to  chaos

No mask, no hospital treatment here. And we all know the mask was the gateway drug to the “vaccine.” Unfortunately, nothing surprises me anymore.

18
0
Will
Will
5 years ago
Reply to  chaos

Everyone did as they were told in the spring and we had no hospital treatment for three months…

10
0
kpaulsmith1463
kpaulsmith1463
5 years ago
Reply to  chaos

…as all of the airlines will have gone out of business.

7
0
Crystal Decanter
Crystal Decanter
5 years ago
Reply to  chaos

Fake jab certs
this will be easy peasy

5
0
willhhand
willhhand
5 years ago
Reply to  Crystal Decanter

I have been thinking that. No doubt fake vaccs XR codes will be on sale. Make sure you renew your driving license and passport as soon as you can in the next few months.

4
0
sam club
sam club
5 years ago
Reply to  willhhand

what if my passport good for 2 more years.i was thinking of that right away thinking of the french resistance etc and all the fake identity cards .

0
0
JohnB
JohnB
5 years ago
Reply to  Crystal Decanter

Have already heard of testing centres (not in the UK), where one is asked whether one wants a positive or a negative result. 🙂

4
0
Spikedee1
Spikedee1
5 years ago
Reply to  chaos

I would appreciate someone from this shit government explaining why we are thinking of vaccinating the under 20’s? They have been at zero risk since this started and the number of deaths since April have been miniscule and as I understand it all the sadlidied had serious medical conditions.

10
0
PastImperfect
PastImperfect
5 years ago
Reply to  Spikedee1

All part of the plan. And you know, that RNA stuff.

1
0
Dorian_Hawkmoon
Dorian_Hawkmoon
5 years ago
Reply to  chaos

So quarantine. Next step in the frog boiling will be…’with the exception of the jabbed’.
Of course truck drivers, business high flyers and the super rich are already excluded.

6
0
Mutineer
Mutineer
5 years ago
Reply to  chaos

I’ve already been refused a private hip replacement unless I have a PCR test, despite me having medical reasons for refusing (previous nasal surgery and complications) I had hoped to sneak through before compulsory vaccination rule which WILL come. It didn’t happen last year as the NHS commandeered private facilities at £400m a month although most were not used. This meant that you couldn’t get surgery even if prepared to pay. They hate the idea of any of us being out of pain.
https://www.hsj.co.uk/finance-and-efficiency/leaks-reveal-two-thirds-of-private-hospital-capacity-went-unused-by-nhs/7029000.article

4
0
Lockdown Sceptic
Lockdown Sceptic
5 years ago
Reply to  Mutineer

I paid for private health insurance for years out of my own pocket. No more. Sylv

0
0
Annie
Annie
5 years ago

A year ago, that would have sounded awful, and people like Starmer would have been bellowing about oppression and iniquity.
Now, in Britain, even life in your red zone sounds like modified bliss. You have restaurants?

20
0
Fingerache Philip
Fingerache Philip
5 years ago
Reply to  Annie

Long may you and your friends continue.

5
0
Thomas_E
Thomas_E
5 years ago
Reply to  Annie

Oh how I miss Thailand..We go there at least once every 2 years as my wife used to live there and my daughters godmother is Thai Radio presenter 🙂 Not sure when I will see it again, if this vaccine passport comes into paly probably never again.

5
0
Caramel
Caramel
5 years ago

Suitable lockdown sceptics song, not sure if it’s been posted before.

If You Tolerate This Your Children Will Be Next – Manic Street Preachers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX8szNPgrEs

9
0
Steve-Devon
Steve-Devon
5 years ago

From what I can pick up a lot of people in the UK firmly believe that it will be all over by Easter and that they will be having family reunions for the Easter holiday. Many people in the UK are booking holidays for later in the year in the belief that it will all be over in few months. I think the Government have realised this and are terrified as to how to handle this huge amount of public expectation.

85
0
Alci
Alci
5 years ago
Reply to  Steve-Devon

I agree. I think there is potentially a major nexus point coming, when many have had the vaccine. They’ve been expecting sunlit uplands from Easter as you say. The penny’s just starting to drop that this may not happen. The question is, what then? Do the masses revolt, or do they suck up the next level of restrictions and lifestyle changes?

I hate, hate that I think most will, even now, suck it up.

70
0
Rowan
Rowan
5 years ago
Reply to  Alci

A few months after the vaccine, holidays will not seem that important.

8
-1
PastImperfect
PastImperfect
5 years ago
Reply to  Alci

Leaflets, stickers, flyers, pamphlets.

3
0
Will
Will
5 years ago
Reply to  Steve-Devon

If the jab doesn’t stop transmission and data from Israel doesn’t look great, then I don’t see how this ends.

17
-1
Felice
Felice
5 years ago
Reply to  Will

I’m watching Israel’s statistics carefully.
I’ve never understood how people think that the jab will end it all, especially since they will want to use the crappy Oxford jab with its low effectiveness.

12
0
Rowan
Rowan
5 years ago
Reply to  Felice

None of them are meant to be effective at stopping the spread of Covid. Their purpose is much more sinister.

15
-3
Rowan
Rowan
5 years ago
Reply to  Will

The vaccines were never meant to stop the transmission of anything, that has been clear for weeks.

8
-1
sam club
sam club
5 years ago
Reply to  Rowan

its the nano particle s that can be read by 5 g i read. no way will i g et that poison . i ts GMO and i stay awy from GMOS , its about gates tracking vaccine nothing to do with the flu sorry the plague

5
-3
Just about sane
Just about sane
5 years ago
Reply to  Steve-Devon

We booked another holiday for August. Am I looking forward to it? No I’m not as I see it getting cancelled along with all the other holidays that has been cancelled. I think folk are booking just to believe that things will get better and to give hope. I know my husband is and what worries me most, is what it will do to him if this holiday is cancelled.

12
0
stewart
stewart
5 years ago
Reply to  Just about sane

Are you now factoring in 2 weeks of isolation in a hotel on the way back?

6
0
Rowan
Rowan
5 years ago
Reply to  Just about sane

Try to holiday in the UK or don’t bother, it’s not worth the hassle and expense.

2
0
Scotty87
Scotty87
5 years ago
Reply to  Steve-Devon

A part of me is hoping the government pulls the rug from under their feet, “sacrifice summer to drive the last nail into Covid’s coffin” could well be the narrative they spin. I can’t believe I’m saying it but I really do hope this fascist dictatorship turn up the tyranny to 11 this year, anything to try and wake the masses out of this compliant, zombie-like state.

I’ve said for months now that it has to get much worse before it gets better.

32
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HoMojo
HoMojo
5 years ago
Reply to  Scotty87

Turn up the tyranny to wake the masses? Didn’t work in Germany in the 1930s. A clear (moronic) majority like being told what to do.

14
0
kpaulsmith1463
kpaulsmith1463
5 years ago
Reply to  Steve-Devon

They’ll simply announce the discovery of a “new” strain – there are HUNDREDS to choose from – and down, once more, will come the iron wall.

26
0
Rowan
Rowan
5 years ago
Reply to  kpaulsmith1463

Then there’s always an entirely new pandemic, perhaps the one that the smiling Bill and Melinda like to threaten us with.

12
0
RichardJames
RichardJames
5 years ago
Reply to  Rowan

Very much so! The amount of knowledge that they have gained from this “dry run” will give them the ability to repeat this event with two “improvements”; firstly the “novel” virus will have a greatly-increased lethality. Secondly, the new variant will have a ready-made procedure, positively demonstrated to work on sheeple; lockdowns and vaccines.

They have been proven to work. It is only the lethality of the new variant that needs a bit of tweaking.

5
-1
PastImperfect
PastImperfect
5 years ago
Reply to  Rowan

Yes we need to find a way to take the smirk off that eugenicist.

Louder than words.JPG
5
0
RichardJames
RichardJames
5 years ago
Reply to  kpaulsmith1463

There’s an infinite number; a mutating virus has an unlimited collection of variations to “choose from”.

1
0
Spikedee1
Spikedee1
5 years ago
Reply to  Steve-Devon

I wish and hope this is true. But they took away Christmas and stopped New Year in Scotland FFS. The sheep just bleeted and carried on.

11
0
Rowan
Rowan
5 years ago
Reply to  Spikedee1

The sheep will keep on bleating all the way to the slaughterhouse i.e. the vaccination centres. People are so unbelievably stupid.

16
0
stewart
stewart
5 years ago
Reply to  Steve-Devon

Are they not understanding that holiday overseas means 2 weeks in isolation in a hotel on the way back?

4
0
JayBee
JayBee
5 years ago
Reply to  Steve-Devon

The Stockdale paradox suggests that those are the people who ‘won’t make it’….

2
0
Anti_socialist
Anti_socialist
5 years ago

I hate my country.

I think that’s what they want.

14
0
Anti_socialist
Anti_socialist
5 years ago
Reply to  Anti_socialist

Technically they want you to hate your country so you accept big brother.

Its called……………..corporate socialism!

14
-2
Steve Hayes
Steve Hayes
5 years ago
Reply to  Anti_socialist

I have no idea why you think these policies are socialist. The people benefiting from them are the billionaires.

26
0
Waldorf
Waldorf
5 years ago
Reply to  Steve Hayes

Indeed.

2
0
GCarty80
GCarty80
5 years ago
Reply to  Steve Hayes

And China (which is still communist at least in name).

6
0
Anti_socialist
Anti_socialist
5 years ago
Reply to  GCarty80

The perfect example.

We could use the term collectivism, but i like to see how many ignorant socialists take the bait.

6
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Steve Hayes
Steve Hayes
5 years ago
Reply to  GCarty80

China has plenty of billionaires.

2
0
Jinks
Jinks
5 years ago
Reply to  Steve Hayes

it’s socialism for billionaires

5
0
GCarty80
GCarty80
5 years ago
Reply to  Jinks

Shouldn’t that called “neo-feudalism”?

6
0
Anti_socialist
Anti_socialist
5 years ago
Reply to  Steve Hayes

LOL A socialist once told me he “can’t understand what’s so great about freedom“! I replied ‘evidently’.

Socialism = Authoritarianism.

Forget Marx, socialism is the emotional blackmail & manipulation of people that are unwilling or unable to accept responsibility for their own lives.

Socialism can not exist without sucking the life out of its host like a parasite, in that sense they have much in common with neo-liberal globalists its why neo-liberals are using a pseudo-socialism as a trojan horse to destroy us independent minded folk.

12
-2
Llamasaurus Rex
Llamasaurus Rex
5 years ago
Reply to  Anti_socialist

All you say here rings true.

2
-1
Bungle
Bungle
5 years ago
Reply to  Anti_socialist

He wasn’t a Socialist then. Even John Bolton, arch-warmonger, says China is not Communist, just totalitarian. My father never saw the sun 6 months of the year as a miner in South Wales but the Co-op and Trade Unions paid for his education and set our family free. Please stop decrying decent people.

6
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Rowan
Rowan
5 years ago
Reply to  Steve Hayes

People throwing terms around like socialism have lost the plot and are likely shit stirring for 77th Brigade. We are now living under naked fascism and fascism is always corporate.

10
-2
RichardJames
RichardJames
5 years ago
Reply to  Steve Hayes

True, but one of the billionaires said “You will own nothing, but you will be happy”. He, of course, will be part of the new Nomenklatura to whom the rules will not apply.

1
0
Jinks
Jinks
5 years ago
Reply to  Anti_socialist

I call it corporate fascism, disguised as socialism.

10
0
kpaulsmith1463
kpaulsmith1463
5 years ago
Reply to  Jinks

‘Corporate fascism’ is a bit of a tautology.

2
0
Bungle
Bungle
5 years ago
Reply to  Anti_socialist

Corporate Socialism? What nonsense. Socialism means people working together for the many, not the few, just as lockdown sceptics are doing right now. All of us are behaving according to this definition of Socialism.

2
-1
RichardJames
RichardJames
5 years ago
Reply to  Anti_socialist

NSDAP in Britain, by another name

0
0
Annie
Annie
5 years ago

The UK has never published any recovery rates. On the World Health meter it just puts ‘n/a’ in the ‘Recovered’ column. I think it’s the only nation to do that.

21
0
Waldorf
Waldorf
5 years ago
Reply to  Annie

The Greeks stopped publishing recovery rates some time ago – a little under 10,000 have recovered but this has been the figure for months without being updated.

1
0
Annie
Annie
5 years ago

No worries. You only get white-lipped pit vipers in the UK.

9
0
Fingerache Philip
Fingerache Philip
5 years ago
Reply to  Annie

What about the ones with 2 legs?

3
0
Annie
Annie
5 years ago
Reply to  Fingerache Philip

They all have.

3
0
Burlington
Burlington
5 years ago
Reply to  Annie

I must have misread your comment Annie. Was the “pit” vipers a result of predictive text? 🙂

0
0
Annie
Annie
5 years ago
Reply to  Burlington

No, just early morning enhanced stupid.

1
0
Annie
Annie
5 years ago

Smiling is infectious and can lead to an unlimited fine
by Annie

Smiling is infectious,
You catch it like the flu,
So government priority
Is to stop all smiles for you.

I passed around the corner
And saw someone in a mask.
When I tried to smile at him
He took me straight to task.

I thought about his attitude
And realised its worth:
How fear and terror of the smile
Have gone right round the earth.

Now, if you feel a smile begin,
Let it pass undetected,
For fear and lies have run amuck,
And all the world’s infected.

62
0
Annie
Annie
5 years ago
Reply to  Annie

I’d be honoured!

4
0
kpaulsmith1463
kpaulsmith1463
5 years ago
Reply to  Annie

Well done.
I wonder what Spike would have made of this mess.

3
0
Annie
Annie
5 years ago

If you ever do come back, stay with us and we’ll have a party in your honour.

11
0
Annie
Annie
5 years ago
Reply to  Annie

Banner to that effect! Will write it on the cake with icing.

5
0
JanMasarykMunich
JanMasarykMunich
5 years ago
Reply to  Annie

Alterity is a great concept. I also find fraternity a bit creepy.

1
0
Fingerache Philip
Fingerache Philip
5 years ago

Get a dog; go out as often as the dog wants to go out so get a sheepdog.
You heard it first here,folks.

8
0
Annie
Annie
5 years ago
Reply to  Fingerache Philip

Make sure it isn’t a sheepledog.

4
0
Allan Gay
Allan Gay
5 years ago
Reply to  Annie

But wouldn’t a sheepledog be appropriate during a flockdown?

3
0
Anti_socialist
Anti_socialist
5 years ago
Reply to  Fingerache Philip

Sorry to be pedantic, didn’t you mean ‘herd’ it here?

1
0
Ken Garoo
Ken Garoo
5 years ago
Reply to  Fingerache Philip

Dogs have finally got it sussed and gained revenge.

comment image

2
0
Cecil B
Cecil B
5 years ago

The pig dictators bicycle ride and Mandy’s rugby ball event were both obviously staged.

I’m reminded of the last known film of Hitler. He was pinning Iron Crosses on 14 year old’s in the garden of the Reich Chancellery. The message was simple, everything is fine here onward to victory. Not many days later the Austrian painter was lying soaked in petrol in the very same garden

My MP has not been seen since March. His constituency home is actually his home having been brought up in the area. Prior to March he could be seen visiting the shops etc. Where he has gone is a mystery

Local Labour and Conservative Councillors have disappeared also

Just saying

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-1
Bart Simpson
Bart Simpson
5 years ago
Reply to  Cecil B

I think many of them are now hiding because they know what’s coming for them when they day of reckoning arrives.

Hint: it won’t be pretty.

12
0
Waldorf
Waldorf
5 years ago
Reply to  Bart Simpson

Yes, in these Covid times I wonder how many councillors and MPs are still holding surgeries?

4
0
Bart Simpson
Bart Simpson
5 years ago
Reply to  Waldorf

Probably none. Best way to avoid angry and distressed constituents.

3
0
Silke David
Silke David
5 years ago
Reply to  Cecil B

So, shall we do a sweepstake which Cabinet Minister will be next weekend?

2
0
Ken Garoo
Ken Garoo
5 years ago
Reply to  Cecil B

They are probably on extended quarantine in some unpleasant place, maybe the Seychelles, because of all the rule changes. They are truly upset that, as it is official business (seeing how other countries handle the pandemic), the expenses are being paid by the tax payer.

0
0
Fingerache Philip
Fingerache Philip
5 years ago

“Workers know no fatherland”.
Sorry if I misquoted Marx.

5
0
Waldorf
Waldorf
5 years ago
Reply to  Fingerache Philip

I think he wrote that the proletarians have no country.
Certainly in the neo-liberal era, it would be more correct to say the capitalists have no country – if moving a factory from Scotland to Romania is more profitable for them, as happened with Continental tyres circa 1999, they will do it.

9
0
GCarty80
GCarty80
5 years ago
Reply to  Waldorf

“A capitalist may be a patriot, capital is not” — Iron Storm, 2002

6
0
Fingerache Philip
Fingerache Philip
5 years ago
Reply to  Waldorf

I’ve always thought that as capitalism always tries to find countries that are cheaper than the last cheapest one, eventually, this system will go “full circle” and will end up back where they started (this country).
After all, much more of this and the UK will be an impoverished backwater.

8
0
Steve Hayes
Steve Hayes
5 years ago

The fact that Lord Sumption’s remarks were greeted with such shock – both on the programme and afterwards – is due to people’s ignorance of health economics.

I find this judgement incredible. As the article points out, the assessment is standard in both policy and practice. Indeed, it is inevitable and essential. This “ignorance” is wilful. People adopt it because it suits their purposes. It is a rhetorical device.

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0
Bill Grates
Bill Grates
5 years ago
Reply to  Steve Hayes

The problem is Sumption allowed himself to be manoeuvred into a dead end which was then ruthlessly exploited.
Elementary mistake , another missed opportunity to get a sensible message across.

What is hard to understand is why Sumption seems to be avoiding any real clash with authority.
He surely has the knowledge etc to mount a plausible legal challenge to all this mayhem .
He wasn’t shy about giving opinions/judgments on Brexit

14
0
eastender53
eastender53
5 years ago
Reply to  Bill Grates

The only mistake he may have made is to assume a basic level of intelligence on the part of the other participants, and a basic neutrality on the part of the moderator.

Also he has spoken about the legal position and been quite clear. Any court would look at legality and proportionality. Apparently dictatorial tools such as Orders in Council are, sadly perfectly legal.

6
0
steve_w
steve_w
5 years ago
Reply to  Steve Hayes

‘money is better spent keeping children alive than pensioners’ – ‘so you are saying you want to kill all pensioners’ etc. See Cathy Newman for details

5
0
Ken Garoo
Ken Garoo
5 years ago
Reply to  steve_w

Killing the pensioners? We have a vaccine for that – apparently.

1
0
FrankiiB
FrankiiB
5 years ago
Reply to  Steve Hayes

Yes. Innitially when I heard reports of this I thought he meant something else. If you’re not a covid’ patient, your life is of less value and you won’t get treatment. That is true and that point needs to be made.

6
0
BeBopRockSteady
BeBopRockSteady
5 years ago
Reply to  Steve Hayes

It reminded me of a conversation I had with a pro lockdown paramedic. I was informing her of the blanket DNR notices scandal, and she defended the policy. She basically said people in care homes were elderly and such touch decisions were made all the time. It was me who was mistaken and my shock was just due to a lack of awareness of the tough job medical professionals do.

I knew it was just a knee jerk defence of the NHS, but didn’t argue any more. I know when people do not want to know.

So when I heard this Sumption debate, I was reminded of exactly how people who feign their virtue, seem to just deploy it when it suits them. To cancel someone, simply to win the argument.

The case of Sumption is a classic one of playing the man and not the ball. And it’s weak. It is what someone resorts to when the facts are against them. Trouble is such a tactic has been weaponised by the media these days for headlines but to also push their agenda.

9
0
Spikedee1
Spikedee1
5 years ago
Reply to  BeBopRockSteady

What i did not understand is why he did not say, this choice is already being made right now in the nhs. When talking to the cancer survivor he could have said If you were having treatment now you would be dead as the treatment would have been stopped.

5
0
Lucan Grey
Lucan Grey
5 years ago
Reply to  Steve Hayes

The correct response would be to ask the Hysteric how many neo-natal incubators she would like to turn off to transfer the resources to her care. Or how many children suffering from leukaemia should be allowed to die so she can live.

Remember it is emotional Top Trumps, not rational debate.

6
0
Cheezilla
Cheezilla
5 years ago
Reply to  Lucan Grey

But he wouldn’t sink so low.
The problem was that he used technical terms, aka jargon, which were seized on and wilfully misinterpreted. He should have been more careful.

1
0
Ken Garoo
Ken Garoo
5 years ago
Reply to  Lucan Grey

On a side note, the MOD has gone more than 10% over budget (normally ~41 billion a year so ~£4 billion) in its cyberwarfare projects to disrupt China, Russia, and anyone who looks at them funny. Their response is ‘give us more’. They gare getting £4.1 billion a year until 2024.

I suspect £4+ billion a year would provide great relief to many people like Ms Whiner. (My bowel cancer remission annual surveillance looks like becoming a year overdue, and my dearest friend died recently from untreated remmsion of bowel cancer). Maybe we could even staff the Nightingale hospitals.

0
0
Jonathan Smith
Jonathan Smith
5 years ago

“Lord Sumption’s remarks were greeted withshock – both on the programme and afterwards – is due to people’s ignorance of health economics.”

Only partially. There’s a manichean tendency now for viewing issues and people as ‘morally good’ or ‘morally bad’ that gets in the way of sensible, rational and nuanced discussions of all kinds. Then there are those, usually the ideologically possessed, who, acting in bad faith deliberately take the least generous interpretation of their opponents arguments in order to bolster their team and invite moral censure of other views. Shamefully, the technique is routinely used to ‘journalists’ nowadays to generate the ‘gotcha’ moment for clickbait.

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0
Steve-Devon
Steve-Devon
5 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan Smith

One aspect of this hoo-haa is the way the argument jumps between considerations of Public Health Policy and National Statistics one one hand and issues of personal tragedy and suffering on the other hand. With the MSM so bought into lockdown enthusiasm I expect it is all to easy to get ‘caught out’ on this trap as happened to Lord Sumption. I think it was using the word ‘value’ that caught him out, a more impartial presenter may have realised this and helped him out but there was little chance of that.

I am not sure but I expect a PR expert would have warned him that there are certain words, phrases and ideas that are ‘sensitive’ and could easily be turned round and used against you as indeed happened. It is unfortunate because he was making an important and key point but he left himself open to this challenge which as we all know is one of the major arguments used against us that we are heartless, selfish, callous, brutal Granny Killers.
I do not know how he should have presented this idea? but it is certainly one of those discussion areas that needs handling with ‘kid gloves’.

9
0
Annie
Annie
5 years ago
Reply to  Steve-Devon

I find it very hard to believe that so eminent a lawyer can be ‘caught out’.

5
0
Anti_socialist
Anti_socialist
5 years ago
Reply to  Annie

He wasn’t caught out, people just can’t cope with the cold hard truth. This kind of difficult choice is made everyday.

Example: Covid patients are considered more important than lockdown suicide, by every lockdown zealot in the country.

13
0
eastender53
eastender53
5 years ago
Reply to  Steve-Devon

This is not an idea. It’s reality. If people can’t face reality it’s their problem. The Lord Buddha was sheltered for years from all evidence of death until he went out and saw it with his own eyes and it changed his perspective. Aging and death are real.

9
0
Annie
Annie
5 years ago
Reply to  eastender53

If there’s one thing great religious leaders have in common, it’s an awareness of reality, particularly its unpleasant side.

5
0
Ken Garoo
Ken Garoo
5 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan Smith

I would have asked the lockdowners how destroying the economy can be reconciled with ‘saving the NHS’.

3
0
Bill Grates
Bill Grates
5 years ago

one thing the morons in charge didn’t factor in was the total decimation of the hospitality industry. Without the huge movement of travellers in and out of the country many hotels are without trade.
The quarantine hotel measures are nothing more than a cynical attempt to support this sector.
But of course only the high end corporates will be used, the smaller owner-operators will be left to flounder.

This is what’s happened down under. In order to keep the high end hospitality infrastructure alive, the managed isolation system was introduced to keep it ticking over. In fact it’s been so successful that some airport hotels are making good profits where previously they were struggling.
Funny old world.

By the way , this doesn’t get much coverage here but if you want a good assessment of why things have been going in the wrong direction for so long, please watch the videos (still on YouTube) of Yuri Brezmenov . He was a KGB defector and was interviewed in the ‘80s .
It explains a lot.

24
0
TheClone
TheClone
5 years ago
Reply to  Bill Grates

It’s all about money! Nothing new!

3
0
penelope pitstop
penelope pitstop
5 years ago
Reply to  Bill Grates

exactly and once the quarantine detention hotels are setup with an easy money flow – the hotels will not want to stop this! Will be here for years.

4
0
Waldorf
Waldorf
5 years ago
Reply to  penelope pitstop

Initially but if you need to be wealthy to travel, then mass travel is over and most businesses and travel agencies will go under. I don’t think it is workable.

5
0
Lockdown_Lunacy
Lockdown_Lunacy
5 years ago
Reply to  Waldorf

Indeed, it might be lucrative for a few properties in a large chain, like some airport hotels. However, as there would be so few people travelling it’s difficult to imagine that with so many empty properties elsewhere that a hotel chain could profit from this in the long term.

2
0
GCarty80
GCarty80
5 years ago
Reply to  penelope pitstop

It’s still a lot less money than they’d make if international travel were fully restored!

3
0
Lockdown_Lunacy
Lockdown_Lunacy
5 years ago
Reply to  GCarty80

Absolutely. It would mitigate some losses at most. I can’t see how this is in the long term interests of the hotel business at all unless they wish to significantly downsize.

2
0
TheBluePill
TheBluePill
5 years ago
Reply to  Bill Grates

UK Column has started a series on this:
https://youtu.be/faYvk8T1t-c

It’s a bit slow to get started but stick with it. Very interesting and scary stuff.

1
0
Hrothgar1722
Hrothgar1722
5 years ago

Sumption’s appearance rams home that point made last week, around this all boiling down to rational vs emotional arguments.

36
0
Anti_socialist
Anti_socialist
5 years ago
Reply to  Hrothgar1722

Socialism uses emotive arguments to enslave us.

eg. Note how lockdown zealots use severity of infection to advocate lockdown, they call this “the science”, there is of course no correlation between symptom severity & efficacy of lockdown.

Then they use moral blackmail to silence you,

“wear a mask to save lives” masks only work one way apparently, i.e. prevent us infecting them, face masks cant protect the healthy according to them. I blame surgeons for this lunacy, so i’ve decided to abandon morals & use real science, i demand evidence masks do anything than make it harder to breath, i’m confident evolution would have developed a filter over our breathing vents if it was practical or plausible.

12
-1
Waldorf
Waldorf
5 years ago
Reply to  Anti_socialist

I thinking putting people in quarantine and then expecting them to pay for it is more like capitalism at its finest.

6
0
Annie
Annie
5 years ago
Reply to  Waldorf

Bugger the labels, it’s simply evil, like the whole shebang. Why should the Devil bother to take sides when they’re all on his side anyway?

16
0
Anti_socialist
Anti_socialist
5 years ago
Reply to  Waldorf

Its a proven strategy that works, e.g. Rabies!

You can argue morally about human rights etc. But quarantine is common practice in animal husbandry, you can’t argue with the objective facts.

1
0
Waldorf
Waldorf
5 years ago
Reply to  Anti_socialist

This isn’t rabies.

4
0
Anti_socialist
Anti_socialist
5 years ago
Reply to  Waldorf

I don’t recall saying it was.

1
0
Lockdown_Lunacy
Lockdown_Lunacy
5 years ago
Reply to  Anti_socialist

I think it’s Martin Kulldorf who often says that public health policy can never be about one single issue, you have to consider the ‘whole’.

So I would say that if a policy has costs which outweigh the benefits, then it cannot be said to ‘work’, as the goal should always be to maintain a properly functioning society. Mass ‘quarantine’ of healthy people is extremely disruptive and provides minimal benefits, especially when a virus is endemic.

4
0
Anti_socialist
Anti_socialist
5 years ago
Reply to  Lockdown_Lunacy

I’m not advocating any mitigation measure I’m one of the few openly honest to say let it rip, look after yourself as you see fit. It should be your choice.

Fact remains quarantine is S.O.P for preventing spreading infection in animal husbandry! Proven to work.

6
0
Hattie
Hattie
5 years ago
Reply to  Anti_socialist

But if Iam asymptomatic then that is not a problem, I consider myself a healthy non disease ridden person. By the way they no longer quarantine animals for rabies – pets passports.

4
0
Ken Garoo
Ken Garoo
5 years ago
Reply to  Anti_socialist

As is culling the herd.

0
0
eastender53
eastender53
5 years ago
Reply to  Anti_socialist

Or we could just shoot anyone infected….. rabies.

2
0
Anti_socialist
Anti_socialist
5 years ago
Reply to  eastender53

We could, very effective method.

2
0
GCarty80
GCarty80
5 years ago
Reply to  Waldorf

Not sure about that, but it’s a good way of limiting how much the taxpayer will have to pay to bail out the hotel industry.

1
0
kpaulsmith1463
kpaulsmith1463
5 years ago
Reply to  Anti_socialist

“I.e.; prevent us from infecting them”
Not even that.
They are merely symbolic; gasses and particulates far larger than viruses pass cleanly through them.

2
0
GCarty80
GCarty80
5 years ago
Reply to  kpaulsmith1463

Was the big push for mask-wearing a legacy of a time when it was still believed that Covid was transmitted through droplets, not aerosols?

3
0
Cheezilla
Cheezilla
5 years ago
Reply to  GCarty80

It was always a psy-op.

2
0
BJJ
BJJ
5 years ago
Reply to  Anti_socialist

Evolution developed “the nose”

2
0
Anti_socialist
Anti_socialist
5 years ago
Reply to  BJJ

Exactly, without a covering, inverted to prevent rain getting in, pure genius.

5
0
Waldorf
Waldorf
5 years ago
Reply to  BJJ

An upgrade from “the gills”.

3
0
TheBluePill
TheBluePill
5 years ago
Reply to  Hrothgar1722

Absolutely. It has got to the point that anyone who thinks rationally is assumed to be “on the spectrum”. Another contortion to make what was one normal thought, to now be an affliction. I would suppose that in fact there is another mental illness that has grown silently and massively – emotional thought. Probably driven in no small part by social media addiction.

2
0
Waldorf
Waldorf
5 years ago

I am due to come back to the UK from Greece on Friday. Hopefully I will get in under the wire as I have no intention of forking out a thousand quid to stay in quarantine. I have to take a Covid test as it is on Wednesday.

7
0
Waldorf
Waldorf
5 years ago
Reply to  Waldorf

To add to the foregoing, I would be surprised if they have such BS up and running by the 22nd of January but then again nothing surprises me any more.

6
0
bluemoon
bluemoon
5 years ago
Reply to  Waldorf

Let us know how you get on. Bon voyage.

6
0
Waldorf
Waldorf
5 years ago
Reply to  bluemoon

Will do, if I ever emerge from the Twilight Zone.

2
0
JohnB
JohnB
5 years ago
Reply to  Waldorf

Hopefully you sail through everywhere with nobody in the slightest bit interested. They make up most of this bollox, remember.

1
0
Hattie
Hattie
5 years ago
Reply to  Waldorf

Not sure how they plan to accommodate thousands of people entering,or will we all just be put up in camps.

1
0
Waldorf
Waldorf
5 years ago
Reply to  Hattie

It does seem unworkable. I wonder how many Brits and others are planning to return to Blighty in the coming weeks. Unable or unwilling to come up with money to stay at the quarantine hotel, will we be put in enclosures like this poor chap?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ooy0GFMYafY
In fact this is relatively humane – no social distancing although there is a wire fence.

1
0
TheClone
TheClone
5 years ago

They took our freedom, they will not relinquish it easily. They are building their world where they could do as pleased while tightly controll the populace.

26
0
neilhartley
neilhartley
5 years ago
Reply to  TheClone

When the bill lands on the national doormat, Covid will be blamed. Wealth taxes, loss of savings (due to inflation) will all be blamed on Covid and not on the deliberate economic policies (government response) inflicted on us. Why? is explained in The Crash Course by Chris Martenson. Covid was the vehicle they used to reset the economy.

11
0
PastImperfect
PastImperfect
5 years ago
Reply to  TheClone

I heard 35% interest on those business loans. Not sure if it has been verified. All small businesses fighting for their lives. Gov’t wielding a sledgehammer to take out medium size businesses. Oligarchs making bank.

Covid Profiteers.JPG
4
0
Cecil B
Cecil B
5 years ago

Toby and Sumption both walked straight into the ambush

I can understand their desire for the truth to be heard, but the regime will always play dirty

The people who front the BBC are all on six figure salaries. If the regime falls there is a good chance the BBC will fall also

This year the turkeys didn’t vote for Christmas they just cancelled it

37
0
Spikedee1
Spikedee1
5 years ago
Reply to  Cecil B

I agree, they sit all polite and people are just spouting vitriol and lies and they are trying to be all calm and sensible and the opposition is jumping all over you on twitter. People keep saying twitter is not the news or public opinion but this crap is being mirrored in the msm so it is the news. Toby going on the bbc and expecting a balanced and fair debate is fucking cray cray! They are looking for clickbait not debate so you need to be armed with tons of ammo and pile in on them. We are being isolated, abused, ridiculed and our point of view repressed. We have to use their tactics against them.

5
0
Mark
Mark
5 years ago
Reply to  Spikedee1

I agree that there should be no illusions here about what we are up against. But this is not a fair fight, this is asymmetric. We do not have access to the resources deployed by the panickers, so their optimal tactics are not necessarily viable for us.

2
0
Cheezilla
Cheezilla
5 years ago
Reply to  Mark

But there is no excuse for naivety.

2
0
Monro
Monro
5 years ago

Some very informative and informed comment yesterday regarding Proportional Representation (PR). I very much still intend to vote for the Liberal Democrats now at every opportunity, even though I disagree with 80% of their manifesto, in an attempt to get them back into coalition and so another, hopefully better drafted, referendum on Proportional Representation. The Lib Dems have some good local politicians hereabouts and have represented the constituency within living memory. I believe PR offers the opportunity for new parties to start up and flourish. That has happened, notably, in Italy but also in Germany and elsewhere. I believe PR better protects minorities(like LS). A system of PR would allow a countryside party, as with, for example, the Rurality Movement in France, to represent rural interests and prevent the tyranny of the urban majority legislating against rural interests about which they mostly know very little but have strong, often bigoted, opinions. Of course the Brexit party had an effect in Britain without any MPs being elected as Brexit party representatives, but it managed that through leveraging the PR system of eu elections in order to get their voice heard via the eu assembly in Brussels. This country now needs radical… Read more »

4
-2
Steve Hayes
Steve Hayes
5 years ago
Reply to  Monro

We already had a referendum on proportional representation (it was the price the Liberal Democrats exacted from the Conservatives in 2010) and the people rejected it.

8
-1
Monro
Monro
5 years ago
Reply to  Steve Hayes

The referendum in 2011 was not for Proportional Representation but for an Alternative Vote system. They certainly won’t be trying that again.

‘The Alternative Vote is not a system of proportional representation’

https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/voting-systems/types-of-voting-system/alternative-vote/

2
0
Steve Hayes
Steve Hayes
5 years ago
Reply to  Monro

And yet it was demanded by the Liberal Democrats, who told the country that it is a form of proportional representation.

Anyhow, you are not in favour of the alternative vote system, so what system are you in favour of?

4
0
Monro
Monro
5 years ago
Reply to  Steve Hayes

The Liberal Democrat leader who said that AV was a system of proportional representation, Nick Clegg, now works for Facebook. That should tell you all you need to know about the Liberal Democrats then.

I am in favour of any system of PR that allows new young parties to flourish.

What system of voting are you in favour of?

2
0
Steve Hayes
Steve Hayes
5 years ago
Reply to  Monro

I am a democrat. I therefore obvious am in favour of direct democracy.

0
0
Tom in Scotland
Tom in Scotland
5 years ago
Reply to  Monro

Yes, AV is not PR, but the Electoral Reform Society foolishly, in my opinion, supported it in the referendum, losing all credibility.

1
0
Tom in Scotland
Tom in Scotland
5 years ago
Reply to  Steve Hayes

No, we did not have a referendum on PR, as I said in a comment yesterday on this topic. The system proposed was the alternative vote, a majoritarian system related to first-past-the-post. AV is not proportional. I am a lecturer in politics and have published in this area extensively. AV was a con and the Lib Dems never should have gone for this.

2
0
Monro
Monro
5 years ago
Reply to  Monro

Of course the answer is not the Liberal Democrats; the answer is Proportional Representation.

4
0
BJJ
BJJ
5 years ago
Reply to  Monro

Can you point to any country where PR protects the people from the Covid hysteria?

1
0
Monro
Monro
5 years ago
Reply to  BJJ

Sweden, Japan and South Korea to name but three

0
0
Tom in Scotland
Tom in Scotland
5 years ago
Reply to  Monro

Sweden has PR, but Japan and South Korea have semi-proportional systems that are more majoritarian (mixed-member majoritarian or MMM systems). I wouldn’t give electoral systems too much credit for this.

0
0
GCarty80
GCarty80
5 years ago
Reply to  Monro

South Koreans were still willing to accept a surveillance state in order to make test-and-trace actually work. Given that even that eventually lost control in December, I now think they may have been better served by the New Zealand approach, as (unlike European countries) they had reacted early enough that a lockdown would have given them a fighting chance of actually eliminating the virus.

0
0
Will
Will
5 years ago
Reply to  Monro

I won’t be voting Lib Dem but, as a countryman I would welcome PR in this country.

1
0
Anti_socialist
Anti_socialist
5 years ago
Reply to  Will

Thats just about the worst form of democracy you can get. Forever governed by a coalition of neo-liberals. Rule under such a government makes it practically impossible to change anything. Kind of like the EU. We just got out of that!

4
0
Monro
Monro
5 years ago
Reply to  Anti_socialist

It can be no coincidence that the most organised opposition to lockdown is in countries with PR: Germany, Italy, Poland

How have we done on that score in this country?

3
0
Anti_socialist
Anti_socialist
5 years ago
Reply to  Monro

What?

It just proves my point, theres opposition yes, but they can’t change anything.

Again what effective opposition have we had for decades? its neo-liberal on the left & neo-liberal on the right, how would PR change anything?

1
0
Monro
Monro
5 years ago
Reply to  Anti_socialist

New parties in Germany Italy France have changed the political landscape in those countries dramatically and radical change is now afoot in all of those places.

1
0
GCarty80
GCarty80
5 years ago
Reply to  Monro

Actually the Brexit Party’s power came from their threat to split the right-wing vote (in a Westminster election) and thus hand power to Jeremy Corbyn.

Once the Tories replaced Theresa May with an actual Brexiteer leader, the Brexit Party returned the favour by not standing against Tory MPs, thus ensuring that they’d split the anti-Tory Red Wall vote instead and thus ensure a big Tory majority.

2
0
Monro
Monro
5 years ago
Reply to  GCarty80

There were many years of activity, UKIP etc., prior to Corbyn and May. To get to a position of influence, UKIP leveraged their position, prominent for their size, within the eu assembly and got disproportionate media coverage from that position. The rest is history.

4
0
Lucan Grey
Lucan Grey
5 years ago
Reply to  Monro

PR allows permanent rule by the technocratic elite, since the policies that get enacted are chosen by them after the election without reference to the people.

In our system, the argy bargy is done before the election so that you know what you will get when you vote. And smaller parties that can’t compromise or influence are eliminated from consideration.

Consider Chesterton’s Fence before you ask to change our system. It works by allowing whoever gets in to make change, but preventing them from stopping that change being revoked in the future.

Our system delivers by permitting the tug of war of change to reach its average over several parliaments, not within one.

1
0
Monro
Monro
5 years ago
Reply to  Lucan Grey

Small parties can achieve dramatic leverage under PR.

The broad church two party system has manifestly failed.

1
0
Cheezilla
Cheezilla
5 years ago
Reply to  Lucan Grey

All this debate assumes that there’s actually an operating parliament.
Have you not noticed that, after his failed attempt to prorogue it, dePiffle has succeeded in disabling it completely?

2
0
AngloWelshDragon
AngloWelshDragon
5 years ago

There is one easy way to explain QALYs to the public which lockdown sceptics should apply ruthlessly and Lord Sumption should have used on Stage 4 Bowel Cancer Lady: “My dear; Do you have children or grandchildren? Yes? do you accept that we live in a world of finite resources and given that would you prefer to see those resources directed at saving their life rather than your own?”

That is what QALYs are in effect. A recognition that money spent on saving the life of my son aged 26 is a better investment than spending it on me, aged 56!

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0
Will
Will
5 years ago
Reply to  AngloWelshDragon

Very well put AWD!!!

1
0
BeBopRockSteady
BeBopRockSteady
5 years ago
Reply to  AngloWelshDragon

The money thrown at Covid measures and more specifically the vaccines shows how a lack of resources is a tool of control. QALYs? Given the vaccines are designed to reduce life years lost, and the average age of a death in 82, I’d say the £40,000 per year used as a baseline in those assessments has been blown out of the water.

3
0
Ken Garoo
Ken Garoo
5 years ago
Reply to  BeBopRockSteady

The vaccines are not designed to reduce life years lost. They are designed to reduce some symptoms in mild cases of the disease and to enhance Big Pharma profits. Not necessarily in theat order.

1
0
Anti_socialist
Anti_socialist
5 years ago
Reply to  AngloWelshDragon

Nah, he got it perfectly right, her life as someone with a terminal illness doesn’t have the same value as person younger & healthier, whether she likes it or not is irrelevant to the facts of the matter.

5
0
Spikedee1
Spikedee1
5 years ago
Reply to  Anti_socialist

Heres the thing, its sad but that’s life. Stop acting like you are owed something because you have cancer. It’s fucking sad but people die every day. Somebody somewhere is having to make the decision to switch off life support and let you go. If you don’t understand we will be trying harder for a twenty year old than we would for an 80 year old you don’t understand the way life and the health service works.

2
0
Anti_socialist
Anti_socialist
5 years ago
Reply to  Spikedee1

If no one died we’d be knee deep in nappies.

0
0
frankfrankly
frankfrankly
5 years ago
Reply to  AngloWelshDragon

QALYS are used by SAGE so I presume those who object would want all organisations in the country to stop using it completely.

0
0
popo says
popo says
5 years ago

Could someone please use ‘lay-lay’ language to make sense of what Gordon Burns has written above?

2
0
Cheezilla
Cheezilla
5 years ago
Reply to  popo says

If your immune system is working properly, a virus is stopped by T-cells immediately on entering the body. So no symptoms arise and therefore no infection.

1
0

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